Where does guitar improvisation come from?

[R_of_G]

I think that even if you're just doing some solo "front porch playing", timing is still important so that whatever it is that you're playing is somewhat recognizable, wouldn't you think?

Yes, timing is important in phrasing even when playing solo, but that's not entirely the same as playing in time. Does that make sense?

Perhaps it's listening endlessly to solo arrangements by guys like Ribot and Frisell that excel in deconstructing a song to (and often far past) it's recognizable parts. The timing in their phrasing is often intentionally out the window, but if the melody is persistent enough, it still sits at the heart of everything.

In my initial answer I was thinking more in terms of Albert Alyer type of group improvisation where playing in time with everyone else isn't necessarily the goal. Of course that could lead us to a far wider discussion of different types of improvisational approaches, and the differences between improv and jamming, and so on. A discussion I'd be thrilled to have but is tangential to RC's original question so I'll avoid forcing us in that direction.

 

[R_of_G]

Delta blues players may offer a good example of timing in playing. They treated their instruments in a more percussive way than contemporary guitar players.

I'm going to make you define "contemporary" before I accept that as a statement of fact.

There are dozens of funk, punk and jazz guitarist I can name off the top of my head that embrace the percussive aspects of their instrument. An army of Jimmy Nolen devotees are scratching their heads right now. oke

 

[rcwilk]

Of course that could lead us to a far wider discussion of different types of improvisational approaches, and the differences between improv and jamming, and so on. A discussion I'd be thrilled to have but is tangential to RC's original question so I'll avoid forcing us in that direction.

Maybe twist this question to ask, do some instruments lend themselves to jamming vs improvisation? Or is there something about the guitar that lends itself to one over the other?

This may turn out the same answers - some feel the player is the total influence on this, others see qualities in instruments that lend themselves to these forms of expression.

 

[rcwilk]

>>I'm going to make you define "contemporary" before I accept that as a statement of fact.

Ha ha, yes, there are many people playing these days that have percussive techniques in their guitar playing, but I don't find that a big part of playing currently. As someone said, it doesn't do much to hit a solid body electric, and though Spanish guitar has it's own percussive techniques, they don't seem essential to me. Country, Reggae, heavy metal - they may have some percussive moves, but I don't see it.
I'm not sure smashing a guitar counts as percussive, nor just banging the guitar around because you are only dimly away of its presence due to substance abuse.

RC

 

[Robert]

The easier the instrument is to play, the easier it is to improvise.

We don't find too many improvisers of this instrument: (not that I know of anyway :tongue: )

Or this one (bassoon)

 

[rcwilk]

The easier the instrument is to play, the easier it is to improvise.

So when there are times historically when the same instrument is being used less or more for improvisation, how does that fit in?

 

[R_of_G]

Maybe twist this question to ask, do some instruments lend themselves to jamming vs improvisation? Or is there something about the guitar that lends itself to one over the other?

Seems that is the question we've been getting at all along, no?

I suspect the answer is still going to come back trending towards "it's more to do with the player(s) and the situation" than towards any specific instrument.

Ha ha, yes, there are many people playing these days that have percussive techniques in their guitar playing, but I don't find that a big part of playing currently. As someone said, it doesn't do much to hit a solid body electric, and though Spanish guitar has it's own percussive techniques, they don't seem essential to me. Country, Reggae, heavy metal - they may have some percussive moves, but I don't see it.
I'm not sure smashing a guitar counts as percussive, nor just banging the guitar around because you are only dimly away of its presence due to substance abuse.

I think the key here is where you say "but I don't find that a big part of playing currently."

You're making a lot of declarative statements about the totality of "current music" which seem solely based on your anecdotal experience with it and not to seem harsh about it, but what you (or any one person for that matter) doesn't know about "current music" could just about fill the Grand Canyon.

I pride myself in listening to a ridiculously wide range of new music and yet I still know that the percentage of what I don't know about is far greater than what I do, and moreover that it always will be that way.

...Reggae... may have some percussive moves, but I don't see it.

Hearing test time?

If not for the distinct percussive rhythm strumming would it even be reggae?

The easier the instrument is to play, the easier it is to improvise.

Gonna have to disagree on that one, or at least suggest the sitar is the exception to that theory. There is nothing remotely easy to play about the sitar and yet it's lent itself to highly improvisational play dating back several thousand years.

 

[rcwilk]

I think the key here is where you say "but I don't find that a big part of playing currently."

No debate there. As I may have mentioned, I'm taking an online class in RockNroLL history and finding each lesson vast areas that I don't know and never knew about. I was shocked to find out BlueGrass is not an old rootsy form of music, but pretty much invented recently mid last century.
Certainly the Blue Men fad was percussive (guys in blue with tubes and other instrumental environmental drums), and there must be many more.

But I would suggest something (pseudo) scientific - we could start with forms of forums such as "all radio stations" and ask the question, do you hear a use of percussion on the guitar?

Ok, radio stations may be low output and have fewer ears than, say Youtube. So say we sample Youtube for music with guitars. How many are using guitar in a percussive way (that is essential to the music)?

I guess if you are including rhythm as percussion, which is surely a fair thing to do, then ~all~ guitar is fully percussive. But really I was getting at something else, that I see now I need to ponder how to express, as it isn't getting across very clearly.

- RC

 

[R_of_G]

I was shocked to find out BlueGrass is not an old rootsy form of music, but pretty much invented recently mid last century.

Prepare to be shocked again? That's inaccurate.

The term "bluegrass" to describe the style of music originated in the middle of the last century (likely due to the association with the great Bill Monroe). The music itself is a derivative of "old time" music and is most assuredly a very old form of American roots music.

Also, I don't mean to blow off the rest of your answer as you're clearly putting thought into this discussion. I'm just hung up on the idea of a course in "Rock n Roll" getting a piece of American roots music history so fundamentally wrong. I shudder to think what (if anything) the course says about New Orleans jazz.

All of which is to say I will process the rest of what you asked and try to answer that as well. I have to say, I do enjoy this thread. My two favorite discussions here this week have been about improv and Miles' 70s electric bands. The venn diagram on that one has a HUGE crossover section.

 

[Robert]

I am not sure what the topic is any more...

But I believe that the harder the instrument is to play, the harder it is to master, which leads to it becoming harder to improvise on. It's easy to make up a melody on the fly with your voice. That's improvising. Try doing that on the bassoon.

Some instrument like the guitar has been around a long time. Way back, it was not used for improvising so much. I think that's because improvisation wasn't something musicians strived for. Mozart and Bach weren't known for their long jam sessions! Before the 1900s, wasn't music mostly composed all the way? Compared to the world of blues & jazz that later came.

 

[R_of_G]

I am not sure what the topic is any more...

The topic has become as amorphous as good improv music. oke

Some of you that know my strongest influences by now had to expect I'd have perhaps far too much fun with this thread.

Turn an Albert Ayler obsessive loose in a thread about improv and watch the tangents fly.

Of course, if it doesn't all come back around again in the end, I'd do that particular hero of mine an injustice.

Before the 1900s, wasn't music mostly composed all the way? Compared to the world of blues & jazz that later came.

Western classical music perhaps. Indian classical music (at least the Hindustani strain) is not through-composed and features a reliance on both structure and improvisation.

That's what I was getting at earlier when I suggested the sitar may be the exception to your "simpler instrument leads to more improv" theory. Like I said, few people would claim it's easy to play a sitar, yet improvisation has been a key element of its play further back than Western classical music or the countries in which it originated.

Also, there are thousands more traditional African styles I don't know than ones I do, but the ones I am familiar with also place some emphasis on improvisation. Unless I'm mistaken, this is where "call and response" originates, a technique still prevalent among improvisers on all instruments, and the most tangible example of Spud's "improv is a conversation" line of thinking (which, by the way, I agree with entirely).

How this entered into American music takes us right to the Delta and New Orleans. The rest you should know.

 

[Tig]

Seems to me this is the whole point of playing. Think about it less and enjoy it more.

In the tech world we refer to an old saying, "Paralysis through analysis."

I've not posted anything because my answer to the question(s) is, "Just play. The rest will sort itself out." I know, that's not helpful. I prefer to keep it simple and play the groove, similar to soul surfing.

This is just my philosophy, not bashing the thread. There have been several wonderful analogies, viewpoints, and useful ideas presented that I won't diminish for a second.

 

[NWBasser]

When I think of soloing/improvising I think of having a conversation. You need to know basic sentence structure to communicate, which I liken to the chords or form of the song. The notes, or scalar parts, are like words. You get to choose what order to put them in to convey what you want to say. Move a note/word and it changes the message. When you know the language you can then handle any conversation/improv session.

Want to learn a new language, a different way of expressing yourself? Refer to Robert's list. Number 3 is listen, listen, listen. Then start incorporating those words, or phrases, into your own new language sentences.

That, and finger dancing, is how I view improvisation.

This is exacty how I see things too.

I try to "converse" in my playing to whatever extent the music allow me to.

 

[rcwilk]

I am not sure what the topic is any more...

But I believe that the harder the instrument is to play, the harder it is to master, which leads to it becoming harder to improvise on. It's easy to make up a melody on the fly with your voice. That's improvising. Try doing that on the bassoon.

Some instrument like the guitar has been around a long time. Way back, it was not used for improvising so much. I think that's because improvisation wasn't something musicians strived for. Mozart and Bach weren't known for their long jam sessions! Before the 1900s, wasn't music mostly composed all the way? Compared to the world of blues & jazz that later came.

I heard a story about Chopin, (and my stories don't seem to be very accurate, so, grain of salt) that he would improv away, and then every once in awhile stop and try to write those notes down, typically frustrating himself to pieces.

Beethoven, I heard was challenged once during a party to a contest, and he kept putting the guy off, and putting the guy off, but he was persistent to compete. The challenger played his masterpiece, but Beethoven kept talking with his friends, though he sat down and with one hand did variations on the challengers masterpiece without breaking his conversation, and winning the contest.

 

[rcwilk]

In the tech world we refer to an old saying, "Paralysis through analysis."

I've not posted anything because my answer to the question(s) is, "Just play. The rest will sort itself out." I know, that's not helpful. I prefer to keep it simple and play the groove, similar to soul surfing.

This is just my philosophy, not bashing the thread. There have been several wonderful analogies, viewpoints, and useful ideas presented that I won't diminish for a second.

Ha ha, yes MLK used to say that about the Kennedy administration, Analysis is Paralysis. But for fun, I counter with Neitzsche's quote, "there are no data, only interpretations" which indicates that all acts are acts of analysis.

Probably a better Neitzsche quote, though thinly relevant " Life without music would be a mistake"

 

[rcwilk]

Prepare to be shocked again? That's inaccurate.

The term "bluegrass" to describe the style of music originated in the middle of the last century (likely due to the association with the great Bill Monroe). The music itself is a derivative of "old time" music and is most assuredly a very old form of American roots music.

Also, I don't mean to blow off the rest of your answer as you're clearly putting thought into this discussion. I'm just hung up on the idea of a course in "Rock n Roll" getting a piece of American roots music history so fundamentally wrong. I shudder to think what (if anything) the course says about New Orleans jazz.

I can't say the teacher totally convinced me, and maybe why I unconsciously posted that as an example, hoping some other views would emerge. He did identify Bill Monroe as the culprit, and then the split off folks in Bill's group the Blue Grass Boys, Earl Scruggs and oh now I'm gonna flunk the test -- someone Flatt? Ahh, thank goodness for Wiki, Lester Flatt. But surely Monroe can't be the only bottleneck in that musical trend? Some research probably needed here.

What is "Miles' 70s electric bands" sounds interesting. Like Miles Davis?

 

[Bookkeeper's Son]

I don't know about origins, history, theory, etc., but I do know one thing - a LOT of guitar "improvisation" is mostly comprised of popular, common and highly recycled licks.

 

[R_of_G]

I can't say the teacher totally convinced me...

By far the best answer. But hey, now you looked some of it up and know more than you did before so it was all a worthwhile endeavor.

What is "Miles' 70s electric bands" sounds interesting. Like Miles Davis?

Yup, Miles Davis. Tig and I had been discussing some of his 70s electric funk-rock bands in the Now Playing thread. Interviews with his players of the period (John McLaughlin, Pete Cosey, Chick Corea, Dave Holland, Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarrett, et al) provide an endless amount of discussion on the nature of improvisation.

I've not posted anything because my answer to the question(s) is, "Just play. The rest will sort itself out." I know, that's not helpful.

On the contrary, I think it's quite helpful as it simplifies the answer to something a player of any skill level can comprehend.

When my neighbor (the bass player) and I would first play together or even hang out and talk music, he often asked some form of the question "what am I supposed to play if the band is playing _________?"

My answer never changed and it never will. There's no such thing as "supposed to." If it's not right, you'll hear it.

Of course, rather than just leaving it a Zen riddle for the guy, I've tried to expose him to some bass players and styles he didn't know before. It's helping him see that there can be an infinite number of approaches to "what do I play when they play _______?"

 

[R_of_G]

I don't know about origins, history, theory, etc., but I do know one thing - a LOT of guitar "improvisation" is mostly comprised of popular, common and highly recycled licks.

Perhaps therein lies the difference between improv and jamming/soloing?

 

[rcwilk]

I don't know about origins, history, theory, etc., but I do know one thing - a LOT of guitar "improvisation" is mostly comprised of popular, common and highly recycled licks.

Hey that might make a fun song based on Wonderful World

Don't know much about im-prov-i-sation
Playin chords or song im-i-tation ...
Don't know much about tabs and notes,
Don't know much about songs Dylan wrote.

But what I do know is I love to play
This old guitar and the songs it say
Nothing to fret about now all day.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

To me it is all about the guitar singing. I look back to Louis Armstrong and his horn playing interspersed with his scat singing. The horn and voice emulated each other. And it is an early example of "soloing" by an instrumentalist. Sometimes the scat and playing was more staccato and other times, like "wonderful world", more conventionally phrased.

So I like to emulate the horn players and have my guitar take the place of the voice in the song. And I like to consider the call and response, question and answer aspects as well.

Of course my improvisation is much more conventional than the stuff R_of_G is talking about. But I do think a lot of improv comes from those early jazz roots.

 

[rcwilk]

Of course my improvisation is much more conventional than the stuff R_of_G is talking about. But I do think a lot of improv comes from those early jazz roots.

Thanks. This makes me wonder, has someone classified different styles of improvisation on the guitar? ie are there 'schools' of improvisation that break down into various trends and techniques? Or has the game always been one of personal expression and individual exploration?

 

[sunvalleylaw]

I would say from the player's perspective, the latter. I would think some scholar or pundit somewhere may have classified things, but would think that most players find their inspirations and then express themselves individually.

I am not aware of a scholar or author who has done such a classification but I am willing to bet there is such a book or article somewhere. But again, I doubt it would be written by a very significant artist. Just my guess.