Amp Wattage

[piebaldpython]

This relates to my SPEAKER SIZE post..............and concerns Tube Watts on an amp......the general consensus seems to be a tube amp 5-15 is good for a small room. So, if you had a 50W amp, but had the volume on 1, what would you lose in terms of tonal response?? Would the higher watts, reduced knob volume have an effect on the treble/mid/bass tones???
Could some of you guys that have BOTH low and high watt tube amps clue a brother in??? Thanks.

 

[M29]

I have recently been turning my amps up to about 3/4 and keeping the guitar down. In the past I have kept the guitar wide open and the amp down and the sound has been somewhat dull, especially when recording with a mic (SM57). I now find with the amp way up, the amp is more responsive and brighter. I do have to be careful to not bump that darn volume knob on my strat though or I get blasted out.

 

[Andy]

Tube amps are all about driving the power(output) tubes to get the classic tube amp sound. If you turn a tube amp way down you might get as good results with a solid state amp. because the tube amp is not really working hard as it's designed to.
The lesser the wattage(to a degree) the more you can drive the tubes at a lower volume. In my experience, even a 5 watt amp can be too loud for the rest of the household(kids/wife) to handle.

ofcourse you can turn it down but that defeats the ideal purpose of a tube amp to begin with... turning it up atleast halfway and pushing the tubes.

I have a 60watt tube amp that can rattle the windows with the master volume on 1..! and it's not even beginning to drive the tubes! so at low volume it sounds really sterile and grainy to my ears.

I don't think it has anything to do with the treble,mid,bass tones.
it has everything to do with pushing the tubes to enter tone nirvana.

thats just my opinion , everyone has their own idea of how to use an amp.
but I think it's a pretty common trend to want to drive a tube amp.

now if you play modern metal , those guys typically like to drive the "preamp" tubes by turning the input volume way up, you can turn the master volume down and get a distortion tone at lower volumes and/or use a pedal.

alot can be posted about using tube amps, it depends on your needs and style of music you like to play

 

[just strum]

I can play my VJr at 1 and it sounds ok (at least to me), but lately I've been setting it between 3 and 4 and controlling the volume more with the guitar and/or RP350.

Since day one I am amazed at the volume this little thing can produce. I couldn't imagine having a 30, 50 or 100 watt tube in this little room.

Edit: Just read the other posts here and see that I am not the only one making these adjustments, just a little slower at realizing the difference.:thwap:

 

[piebaldpython]

OK, thanks. Hmmmmmm.......so, if you had a 50W amp, kept the volume around 5 (for the sake of argument) but dailed the volume on your guit way back to "bedroom" levels, would that give you better tone than doing the opposite. Just playing off M29's post. Thanks.
My apols if these questions are DUMB, just a guy trying to learn.

:rotflmao: Strum, you posted while I was writing and I didn't see yours. :thwap:

 

[tunghaichuan]

In a nutshell, wattage is wattage. Tube watts aren't stictly louder than solid state watts.

The reason that tube watts are percieved as louder is the way tube distort. When a tube is pushed it goes gradually into distortion, with the wave form being slightly rounded off. Sometimes this is percieved as "warmth" or "fatness" because there is pleasing harmonic distortion, but at low levels is not heard as distortion.

When a solid state amp is pushed, it sounds bad because solid state devices clip abruptly, and the signal square waves, there is no gradual rounding of the wave form. Although some SS devices do behave similar to tubes, namely MosFets. But they still don't sound exactly like tubes because of their physical construction diffences.

Another factor to consider is that a 50w Marshall puts out 50w clean. When cranked all the way up with the output section putting out gobs of harmonic distortion, the amp can do 75w easily.

With a 50W amp on 1, you are not pushing the output section, therefore no harmonic distortion. The signal is clean. Guitar players usually like some harmonic distortion, even if it isn't heard as distortion. Again, this is "warmth" or "fatness" coming into play. Tonally, at low volumes, the sound is almost hifi, although this is limited by other parts of the amp, namely the output transformer and speaker.

Bedroom players (like me) like low wattage amps because you can get nice warm tones at lower volumes. Although even a small 5w amp can be defeaning in a small room. A 50 watt amp is out of the question. By the time the tone gets nice an warm, it is at hearing damaging levels.

tung

This relates to my SPEAKER SIZE post..............and concerns Tube Watts on an amp......the general consensus seems to be a tube amp 5-15 is good for a small room. So, if you had a 50W amp, but had the volume on 1, what would you lose in terms of tonal response?? Would the higher watts, reduced knob volume have an effect on the treble/mid/bass tones???
Could some of you guys that have BOTH low and high watt tube amps clue a brother in??? Thanks.

 

[just strum]

tung,

I'm not following your post completely.

My AD30VT does not seem remotely as load as my Vjr set at three. So, what is the difference when both are set the same. If you noted that in your post, I apparently didn't get it.

 

[Katastrophe]

Great post, tung, and you're helping me out as well.

Strum, I'm with you and have similar ?s.

So, what you're saying is that a baseline wattage rating for a 50 watter is 50 watts, squeaky clean? So when you turn up the volume and start getting the tubey distortion goodness, it's actually pumping out more than 50 watts?

Cool.

So is it true with SS amphs that the wattage rating is a maximum output? My Crate is rated at 120 watts. Does that mean that my Crate will only put out a maximum of 120 watts?

Does this make any sense?

 

[marnold]

I believe what you are saying is correct, Kat. Also the sensitivity of the speaker will contribute to overall loudness.

Remember too that the ratio between wattage and perceived loudness is logarithmic. Thus a 50W amp (with everything else being equal, which is rarely the case) will only be twice as loud as a 5W amp.

 

[tunghaichuan]

tung,

I'm not following your post completely.

My AD30VT does not seem remotely as load as my Vjr set at three. So, what is the difference when both are set the same. If you noted that in your post, I apparently didn't get it.

It is hard to say. The AD30VT is a digital modelling amp. I would guess that the engineers designed the output section to stay as clean as possible as long as possible. Digital distortion sounds terrible. That amp gets its distortion from digital modelling. This will reduce the output level as you can't push the amp hard enough.

The VJ, on the other hand, is all analog. It will sound louder because it can be pushed harder, you want that amp to distort; it will sound better.

That would be my guess, anyway.

tung

 

[piebaldpython]

So.....uh.......would things not sound "better" if you cranked on the amp volume and simultaneously turned your guit volume down???? Sorry if I'm being dense.

 

[tunghaichuan]

So.....uh.......would things not sound "better" if you cranked on the amp volume and simultaneously turned your guit volume down???? Sorry if I'm being dense.

Look at it like this: when you turn the volume down, you are reducing the input voltage into the amp. The preamp doesn't drive the amp as hard as it would if the volume was all the way up. It will sound cleaner, but "better" is a relative term.

tung

 

[just strum]

I guess until I fully comprehend all this, I will dial in to what sounds good to me. Come to think of it, whether you know the reasons or the whys, the objective is still the same - Find your sound and enjoy!!!

The other day one of the threads got me to pull the Strat out and mess with more than usual. Since then, it is being the one played 80% of the time. I'm adjusting the amp, the RP350, the tone, and the pup combination and I am finding tone that I never knew existed.

 

[tunghaichuan]

All this discussion is academic anyway. If it sounds good, it is good. It doesn't matter what components gear is comprised of. I've heard crappy tube amps and great sounding SS amps.

I guess the bottom line for me is: does it inspire me to play, to make music? If so then the gear has achieved its purpose.

tung

I guess until I fully comprehend all this, I will dial in to what sounds good to me. Come to think of it, whether you know the reasons or the whys, the objective is still the same - Find your sound and enjoy!!!

The other day one of the threads got me to pull the Strat out and mess with more than usual. Since then, it is being the one played 80% of the time. I'm adjusting the amp, the RP350, the tone, and the pup combination and I am finding tone that I never knew existed.

 

[just strum]

tung, regardless, I do value your knowledge and of the others here.

 

[Andy]

you can look at it this way .
why are overdrive/distortion pedals so popular?
Because they emulate the sound of a pushed tube amp.
It can be a hardly noticable warmth in your sound all the way to full on distortion. . but nothing(no matter how much you spend) is the real thing.

 

[M29]

Let us not forget old Fletcher/Munson. Those of us that play mostly in our bedrooms, dens, computer rooms, etc, will loose a bit of treble and bass at low volumes because of the Fletcher Munson curve. This is a natural drop in human hearing. Notice the next time you turn up an amph, stereo or TV. At a quite setting the sound is lifeless and very dull. When you turn it up it gets bassier and has more treble and sounds much better. This is our natural hearing that is lacking below a certain volume level.
Here is a link to an explanation of the Fletcher Munson curve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher–Munson_curves

In other words our ears are kinda being tricked at low volumes. As we turn the volume up the sounds gets more even to our ears and sounds better.
I don't know if I explained this worth a darn but maybe someone else can chime in.

M

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

I've read that tube amps are rated at the wattage the amp can produce without clipping. As tung said, 5 watts is 5 watts clean & more when pushed.

 

[Katastrophe]

The other day one of the threads got me to pull the Strat out and mess with more than usual. Since then, it is being the one played 80% of the time. I'm adjusting the amp, the RP350, the tone, and the pup combination and I am finding tone that I never knew existed.

That's awesome! I've stumbled upon that as well, only it took me a lot longer time to get there! I used to use multieffects and or MIDI to get tonal variety, and kept the guitar volume all the way up. Now, I haven't bothered to replace my fried effects unit, and am having a great time coaxing new tones out of the amph and vol/tone knobs (still want a new amph though).

BTW, I've found that my Crate is a hell of a lot more versatile than people make it out to be, and it sounds good, too!