Capo questions??

[Steve206]

Hello folks,,

I could use a little help and/or advice, on whether what I am going through is normal.

This is all based on my accoustic guitar. A washburn J-28SCEDL. I put a Colossi saddle into the guitar a couple of years ago and am wondering now, if I may have botched the install?

The action is low. I am sorry to say that I do not remember the height numbers at the 12th fret, and I am away from the guitar, as I type.

My question: I am having to retune the guitar after I get it in tune and then put a capo onto the neck. This is occuring in a dropped D tuning and Capo on the second fret. The guitar is fine in normal tuning. Add the Capo and the strings are a little sharp. Is this normal?? Or is it a sympton of a bad setup resulting in a bad intonation?

I have tested the string, open. The string at the 12th fret and the harmonic of the string at the 12th fret and yes, there is a slight difference. Is this the clue to an improperly sized saddle? The results have always been on the sharp side.

Just wondering if any of you have experienced this? I watch performers and they move capos around without having to retune. Is my guitar out of whack???

Thanks ahead,

Steve

 

[markb]

Maybe the nut's a little high. That'll cause sharp notes on the lower frets. Try checking with a tuner. Fret the low strings at the first and second frets. If they're sharp your nut needs adjustment.

 

[tjcurtin1]

Maybe the nut's a little high. That'll cause sharp notes on the lower frets. Try checking with a tuner. Fret the low strings at the first and second frets. If they're sharp your nut needs adjustment.

Yeah, I had the same problem the first time I replaced a nut; I didn't check it in relation to the original, and it really threw things out of whack, even though the difference appeared small when I did compare the two.

 

[Dreadman]

Hey Steve. How's it going buddy?

As mentioned above, if the nut slots are too high then all fretted notes will be sharp but intonation could also be an issue. If the note at the 12th fret is sharper than the 12th fret harmonic then the contact point for that string on the saddle needs to be further from the nut. Kind of tricky to get very accurate intonation on an acoustic and no drop in saddle or duplicate of a stock saddle is likely to be perfect. The best saddle intonation is accomplished by making the saddle with the guitar in hand and it's very time consuming. Each contact point must be filed, strung & checked, re-filed, etc... Then the overall saddle height is set once all 6 points are correct.

Hope this helps.

 

[Steve206]

Right back at ya, Dreadman,,,

I replied with an email but you may have changed your address.

I remember checking with lots of folks about this whole saddle business. Not one of them has ever complained of the troubles I am seeing. A lot of them changed their saddles from plastic to bone or tusk. Maybe they are not using capos.

As you explained about the more rigorous approach with the files and individual string attention, I found that that was the first time I had heard it. In the end, does the whole intonation/set up deal, remain kind of fluid or is there a dead on solution? And then, what happens when you change strings?

There just might be something to be said for ignorance, if the guitar sounds okay. Maybe some middle ground could be a good thing?

Anyway, it is always a treat to be in your workshop and I want to extend good wishes to you and the family.

Thanks again,,,

Steve

 

[Dreadman]

Sorry I missed your email Steve. You actually just reminded me that I have an email address out there that I haven't checked in months. lol I haven't been much of a forum or internet guy lately.

Interesting that you mention ignorance. If you're noticing intonation problems it very well could be that the new factor is improvement of your ear.

Intonation doesn't remain fluid except for one factor - humidity (and to a lesser extent, temperature). Even though the length of a guitar is the smallest direction of growth and shrinkage it's still moving with the weather, more so with acoustics since they have more unfinished wood.

A guitars intonation is something that can't be "perfect" but just for the sake of academic discussion here's what I know about getting it as close as possible.

1.) You've got to start with a very well made guitar, specifically one with accurate fret placement. It's actually not unusual for some new guitars to have less than accurate fret spacing. If the frets aren't leveled and crowned at the factory that should be done right off.

2.) From there a humidity level that can be maintained should be determined and the guitar acclimated to it for a week or so. 40% - 50% RH ideally.

3.) Next, a complete setup including action, nut action and compensation of both the saddle AND nut.... by a luthier on the actual guitar, not drop in parts like Earvana. Of course this has to be done with the size and brand of strings that you plan to use until the next setup.

4.) Learn equal temperament tuning. I just dug out an article I wrote and posted about a year ago on the W and I'll put it in my next post (below). If the mods see fit they can copy it to a new thread in an appropriate area.

 

[Dreadman]

Equal Temperament Tuning

Here's a neat way of tuning a guitar, well suited for recording and other times when you'd like chords to sound their best. I'm no expert on this (and maybe someone else can add to it) but the intonation of fretted instruments is never exact. Even with perfect frets, correctly set intonation and when perfectly tuned with an electronic tuner, each note on the fretboard isn't perfect and that's why chords sometimes sound a little off. What this tuning technique does is strike a balance so that every note on the fretboard is "imperfect" by the same amount (more or less). You have to use your ear and it takes a little longer but the results are clearly noticeable.

Note: To play a harmonic you touch the string (without moving it) directly over a certain fret (don't press it down to the fret) and pick it as usual. It will produce a ringing sound.

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1.) Tune your guitar as usual to get it close (I typically go through all six strings at least twice with the tuner to compensate for the strings changing pull on the neck).

2.) Play the 5th fret harmonic on the low E string, then play the open high E string and re-tune the high E so it's in perfect tune with the 5th fret harmonic of the low E string. Now those two strings are done.

3.) Play the 12th fret harmonic on the low E string, then play the note on the 2nd fret of the D string and retune the D string so that note's in perfect tune with the 12th fret harmonic of the low E string. Now D is done too.

4.) Play the 12th fret harmonic on the D string, then play the note on the 3rd fret on the B string and retune the B string so that note's in perfect tune with the 12th fret harmonic of the low D string. B is done.

5.) Play the 12th fret harmonic on the D string, then play the note on the 7th fret on the G string and retune the G string so that note's in perfect tune with the 12th fret harmonic of the low D string. G is done.

6.) This one is backward. Play the 12th fret harmonic on the A string, then play the note on the 2nd fret on the G string and retune the A string so it's in perfect tune with the 12th fret harmonic on the A string.

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That's it. Now play some chords, let them ring out and go ahhhhhhh, cool. If it doesn't sound real good then either:
a.) You didn't get close enough with your ear
b.) The guitar is poorly intonated
C.) Your frets aren't positioned very well

Here's a quick reference chart. Just remember to tune the bold string.

6E @ 5th fret harmonic = 1E open
6E @ 12th fret harmonic = 4D @ 2nd fret
4D @ 12th fret harmonic = 2B @ 3rd fret
4D @ 12th fret harmonic = 3G @ 7th fret
5A @ 12th fret harmonic = 3G @ 2nd fret