Cars and money for them...?

[deeaa]

How much money are you guys willing to spend for cars as percentage of your yearly family income?

We absolutely need a nice car; drive maybe 20k a year with the family and so on...so I've been trying to calculate how much should I spend on the next car. As percentace of our family income, I've calculated I wouldn't want to spend more than between 10-15% in a new vehicle...but the trouble is, cars being so expensive here, it means a 5-6 year old car with 200.000 on it almost, if we're talking station wagon/family size cars.

But I suppose some people spend much more money on their wheels, am I right?

My missus is very much of the idea that we should get a much nicer car than I would settle for; I'd like something large, cheap, with the smallest and least thirsty engine I can find, and I don't care how it looks, but she'd like a nice black quality brand car. Which is hard when I really don't want to spend such a lot of money on it anyway.

 

[Retro Hound]

We got a 98 Windstar when it was two years old and we are still driving it. If you buy a good car a few years old you can save a bundle and it'll still run forever with basic maintenance.

As far as percentage, total cost of the van was about half a full-year salary, but I don't remember what the payments were. We paid it off early and haven't had car payments since. (I drive a beater pickup.)

 

[sumitomo]

That's how I got into the car business,I couldn't see paying for one.Should have listen to my mother and become a doctor,lawyer or a dentist.Sumi

 

[oldguy]

We always buy used. Higher mileage vehicles are fine if they've been maintained well, but it's a crapshoot. We're lucky to have a great mechanic who can go over a prospective purchase and let us know if it needs anything done. Safety is our first concern, always. We've gotten some bargains (to me they were), by buying something with a few dings, for instance, and fixing the air conditioning ourselves. This was in the middle of summer and no one would buy a car w/o air. Turned out to be a leaky hose/fitting. We got the car cheap, spent a hundred, and drove it 3 yrs. In that time we replaced the brakes, tires, and did routine maintainence. I try to keep vehicle payments down around 15-20% of our income (for a decent 4x4 at my job, plus a gas-miser for the wife). Right now her Honda's paid off and running great, so it's less, which is always good. With the local economy like it is (well, even when it wasn't), I wouldn't think of buying a brand new status symbol vehicle.
However, as many miles as I drive, I would consider a new, plain-jane 4x4, if it were a hybrid and I could get significantly better m.p.g.

 

[deeaa]

Yeah I don't think we'll ever buy a new car with us making under 100k a year like currently, that'd be throwing away good money. 4 to 6 year olds are just fine for now.

I've been eyeing early 90's chevy vans of late. There are several good ones for sale with 6.2 litre diesels and many driven even under 300k. I know those old 6.2's can take half a million easy, and I know one with 750k on its engine.

For a bit over $10.000 I could get a '92 chevy conversion van with seats for five and ample cargo space, and pretty much rust free, 300k on it. I dunno, I used to have an '89 a few years back and I regret selling it a lot...maybe, maybe...

 

[deeaa]

Oh yeah, of course in the U.S. families would have two cars. Here it's very rare, only the richest people would do that I think. Instead you have families with no cars at all, not because they can't afford one but don't think they need one. I have a few friends in their 40's who are only pondering now whether they should get a driving licence. One got his just now, he had to get one as they got a child and his wife soon tired of driving them everywhere...with small kids a car is a very nice thing to have.

Two cars would be nice, but I can always walk or cycle to work, it's only a few miles a day. Get some exercise too while at it. The wife's workplace is just a mile further and she wants to walk or cycle too most of the time. Kids can be walked to kindergarten, and when they are school age they can damn well walk the few miles to school as well.

But one car is a must IMO...how else go to the cottage or haul bigger stuff around, go see relatives etc...impossible w/o a car.

BTW my current vehicle is the first one ever with A/C...those are rare here too. (correction:were rare. Lately it seems all new cars have 'em.)

 

[hubberjub]

I worked in the auto industry for several years and have a ton of horror stories. Most of them would put those segments you see on 60 Minutes to shame. The most important thing is to go with something you can afford as opposed to what a dealer or bank says you can afford. When I was in my twenties (only a year and a half ago) I always drove expensive cars because I am a car nut and had a lot of disposable income. Now I'm payment free and have no plans to buy a car in the near future. I have a 2000 Infiniti with 175k and a 1995 Ford Ranger with 210k on the clock. I would advise something a little safer than the early 90's Chevy van. I'm not sure what is available in Finland but there must be a ton of Volvo 240 wagons for sale over there. I had one of those in high school and wish I could find another.

 

[deeaa]

I worked in the auto industry for several years and have a ton of horror stories. Most of them would put those segments you see on 60 Minutes to shame. The most important thing is to go with something you can afford as opposed to what a dealer or bank says you can afford. When I was in my twenties (only a year and a half ago) I always drove expensive cars because I am a car nut and had a lot of disposable income. Now I'm payment free and have no plans to buy a car in the near future. I have a 2000 Infiniti with 175k and a 1995 Ford Ranger with 210k on the clock. I would advise something a little safer than the early 90's Chevy van. I'm not sure what is available in Finland but there must be a ton of Volvo 240 wagons for sale over there. I had one of those in high school and wish I could find another.

Yeah plenty of old Volvo's here but usually not so well looked after as old Chevys. Those conversion vans are quite expensive new (a 2009 model would set me back over $100.000, and usually they are also looked after very well. Old volvos, not so much. Well OK an XC90 volvo would also cost more than a hundred thousand nowadays, but it's a different car from normal station wagons. The STW V70 volvo can be had for roughly 70k.

I think an 90's chevyvan is rather safe, if not for anything else, for the sheer bulk, height and the amount of metal. I had two small crashes with the '89 I had...once a friend backed it into a brick wall and once I backed into this steel air duct (which lost the match) I believe it would make rather a mess hitting one of those volvos for instance. Of course no airbags etc...but I suppose at least the kids in the back seat would be pretty well safe; the driver has only the sitting height working for him or her. Plus them vans have an 80km/h max speed limit over here...and they don't really do much faster either. I've seen also this van that crashed into an elk, not much harm done except totaled grilles etc...but if you crash into an elk with a lower, normal car, it's gonna be right inside the vehicle as you only sweep its legs from under it and the body slams against the windscreen at full speed...not pretty.

 

[marnold]

It's quite a bit different here in the U.S. too. The country is much more spread out and cars are a cherished way of life. Plus they're a lot cheaper over here from the figures you are giving. That same van you mentioned probably wouldn't even get a couple thousand here, certainly not in this neck of the woods. Of course in some huge cities like New York, few people have cars because there's no place to put them. They take public transportation everywhere.

I'm looking into replacing my car that has 227,000 miles on it. Winters up here take their toll too with the salt that is used to deice the roads. I'm looking at a late model used--just used enough that I don't take that initial depreciation hit. I'd have to take out a loan and wouldn't want a payment more than 10% of my income.

 

[Tig]

While I love old classic muscle cars and other performance cars, I remain very practical in practice. Sadly, many Americans think that their car defines who they are. Funny, but I always thought that our intentions, actions, and words defined who we are. Dang, I really am backwards sometimes! :thwap
I guess I'm not trying to impress others with my car. The thing is, very few people are impressed with any car on the road. I say, get something that is easily affordable, safe, useful for your needs, and reliable (do your research). When we let ego dictate our choices, we end up chasing a mirage of artificial happiness. Just my personal opinion here... Not attacking anyone directly.


// We finally donated Mrs. Tig's '97 Ford Taurus to charity last year, as it needed replacement. The new Honda Civic is safe, reliable, and gets excellent mileage for a relatively low cost. She loves it!

I'm still driving an old '99 Ford F-150 truck (I'm in Texas, ya know). It's V-6 and 5 speed manual is great on gas, and we use the bed to haul gardening stuff, bikes, and lumber all the time. The back seat is plenty roomy enough for the kids. It is starting to have it's problems after 170,000+ miles, but I'm sure I can squeeze another year or two out of her.

 

[deeaa]

Oh yeah you can't get by without a car in the U.S. no way. Even upstate New York where I worked for a while in a small town, it was like there was no way you could get to the post office or the McDonalds joint, hell, even the main diner without a car safely. No pavements anywhere except the very town centre, and every building like a quarter mile apart from each other past the centre. You'd not want to walk a mile to a 7-eleven and half a mile to diner or so, no way.

I of course had to run to stores etc. and it must have been like four miles from the workplace to town centre, and it was weird, not another walker in sight, or cyclist, or anything. I just walked the curb and people would honk their horns and stuff...I got the idea well, nobody walked in that town except in the center. I walked to this gas station to get some smokes, and the owner seemed to be ready to bolt and eyed me the whole time, obviously suspicious of this long haired dude _walking_ to a gas station miles from the town, LOL.

It's very different here...I can drive my bicycle clear into the next town a hundred miles away and never leave a designated asphalt road only for cyclists and walkers following the car roads,never even crossing them but having bridges and tunnels for getting to the other side.

However of late it seems the trend even here now is a little towards large shopping malls away from the center, to where it can be even difficult to get without a car.

But yeah, I can totally understand that in the U.S. most places you basically need a car for everyone the driving age in the family.

And yeah, cars are dirt cheap in the U.S. compared to here...it's been getting better I think, over the years, but we used to have, for instance, a 120 percent tax on the factory price of a new car, plus shipping etc. Ever since joining the European Union it's been getting cheaper gradually, but it's still clearly at least the second largest if not the largest investment a family can make to buy a new car, if they so decide. I mean, you could sometimes get a nice old farm house and some land of your own a little ways off center for the price of a premium-quality family car.

There are of course people, like this friend of mine, who'd rather buy a 50-thousand BMW and still live in a rented 2-room apartment with his wife, than pay a lion's share of his own proper house instead.

 

[Tig]

It's very different here...I can drive my bicycle clear into the next town a hundred miles away and never leave a designated asphalt road only for cyclists and walkers following the car roads,never even crossing them but having bridges and tunnels for getting to the other side.

I'm envious, as are most American cyclists. American drivers just don't understand anyone who chooses to commute or ride bikes for fun and exercise. They are under the incorrect assumption that the road is for them only, and will try to proove it by the way they treat cyclists.

 

[tunghaichuan]

I'm envious, as are most American cyclists. American drivers just don't understand anyone who chooses to commute or ride bikes for fun and exercise. They are under the incorrect assumption that the road is for them only, and will try to proove it by the way they treat cyclists.

OTOH, I see cyclists doing all kinds of stupid things on the roads where I live. Like running stop signs/red lights because they don't feel like stopping. Or not signalling where they're going. There's enough blame to go around.

But I hear you, I'm a casual cyclist, I'd like to ride my bike more, but as you noted, lots of drivers do stupid things as well. So I tend to stick to areas where I don't have to share the roads with dipsh*ts to busy talking on their cell phones/texting to watch out for me.

 

[street music]

Dang man, a 90's Chevy Conversion van with a 100,000 miles on it here might sell for $1000 , I guess it cost a lot more in Finland but those numbers you quoted seem kinda crazy in my book. My brother actually has a 96 with than a 120,000 miles on it that is just sittin in his back yard for the last four years.

 

[deeaa]

Dang man, a 90's Chevy Conversion van with a 100,000 miles on it here might sell for $1000 , I guess it cost a lot more in Finland but those numbers you quoted seem kinda crazy in my book. My brother actually has a 96 with than a 120,000 miles on it that is just sittin in his back yard for the last four years.

I found one maybe just like that on sale here...

http://www.nettiauto.com/chevrolet/chevy-van/2822555

The asking price in $ is $17.000. Actually not that bad at all, but still out of my range.

The funny thing is, something like a '89 might even be more expensive...it's not the age, it's how well it's maintained.

 

[Rampant]

The massive gulf between different cultural values being highlighted in this thread is so thought provoking. It's amazing...

Being a complete petrolhead (as is my wife) we have 2 expensive performance/sports cars. It's just one of our "hobbies".

I know we (my wife and I) get pre-judged because of the cars we own and drive, but for us it's got absolutely nothing to do with ego, as Tig suggested. It is all about the thrill of driving. Yes, there is a certain amount of feel-good factor that comes with owning nice things - I'm sure we all get that with our guitars. But mostly it's about playing the guitar - or driving my car - and attempting to do it well.

Cars seem SO EXPENSIVE in Finland, but I guess the tax goes towards building all those fantastic cycle paths!

deeaa - good luck in firstly agreeing with your other half over the kinda thing you're going to look for and secondly in finding just that!

 

[marnold]

I know we (my wife and I) get pre-judged because of the cars we own and drive, but for us it's got absolutely nothing to do with ego, as Tig suggested. It is all about the thrill of driving. Yes, there is a certain amount of feel-good factor that comes with owning nice things - I'm sure we all get that with our guitars. But mostly it's about playing the guitar - or driving my car - and attempting to do it well.

As a good Michigan boy, I understand entirely. The funny thing is that it was always my Mom who had the lead foot. Having a fast car for no purpose other than to go fast would be right up my alley, but unfortunately I can't foresee me ever having enough cash to get one.

 

[Tig]

OTOH, I see cyclists doing all kinds of stupid things on the roads where I live. Like running stop signs/red lights because they don't feel like stopping. Or not signalling where they're going. There's enough blame to go around.

Yep, too many riders are guilty of incredible stupidity. It's not like it isn't dangerous enough out there, so why increase their chances of getting nailed? :thwap
I've been riding on the road for 22 years and was hit at an intersection the first year (they turned left into me illegally). I've managed to make it safe since with just a few minor crashes, which is quite an accomplishment, if I say so myself.

Crashing while riding trails on an MTB is normal, however. I can't count how many times I've taken a "dirt nap"!

 

[deeaa]

Cars are a favorite 'milking cow' of the government, because Finland is a relatively large country - much bigger than UK for instance - yet there are only five million inhabitants here. That means distances between towns are long and sparse population can't keep public transport going everywhere.

For instance, it's over 400km to my mother-in-law, and it takes six hours by bus, but that is very inconvenient...and by train you have to make a longer trip and it can take almost nine hours. Plus if you have a larger family (like my sister has a family of six) it'd cost way too much to get a train and cabs to cottage for instance, I mean, closer to a thousand I believe for a round trip for six people including taxis etc. So you need a car if you want to keep in touch with relatives etc. or own a cottage in the country.

But, there are plenty of single people and childless couples who can easily get by without a car.

I often feel that private cars are sometimes a favorite scapegoat for most anything. People are very jealous of big flashy cars sometimes - not when it's obviously earned, but for instance when the local University principal got a 'free' car from his work, to be able to drive between University faculties in several towns - there has been a LOT of talking about that - what, a university head gets a free car to use from work?? AND ONLY THREE YEARS OLD NICE AUDI TOO! What a luxury car ;-) it's really very stupid. My neighbor has like four cars, including an AMG Mercedes 6.3 litre monster for instance and nobody questions that. But a free car...WHAT?

Anyways, cars sometimes raise emotions quite strangely here.

It's also a major cause of deaths, cars I mean...since we have quite little crime etc. cars are often in the news for fatalities. And that gives a good reason to tax 'em and put all kinds of no-no's for their use. Sometimes it seems like if there were no cars or drunkards nobody would die here, if you believe the news.

Last 24 hours in the news in Finland:

- 2 fatalities from someone crashing their car off the road, at least one was drunk, probably both (still unknown)
- One driver tried to escape police and crashed, probably was a drug user or drunk
- Four drunken kids crashed & burned their car

Other:
- 40 something drunkards killed another in a bathroom with a knife
- A younger drunkard almost killed some older drunkard with a knife in the early morning in the capital
- There was a fight between some drunkards in another town, also some people who had tried to go between got smacked some

So the conclusion is easy. Of course you can't ban or limit alcohol use...but hey, many of these fatalities/bad things feature a CAR...so LET'S tax cars even more and put up some more speed limits etc...that'll do it...

Stupid stuff....

 

[Rampant]

The car is being demonised here in the UK as well.
This only legitimises the ill feeling that "jealous" people generate towards people who own and drive 'nice' cars. Makes me sick to the pit of my stomach.

I often wonder if I set up a political party that was "pro-car" and "pro-road safety" and "pro-road maintenance" and "pro-driver training" and "pro-(proper) road policing" how much of a land-slide victory it would win...

Sorry off-topic.

What also makes me angry is the demonisation of sporty cars based on CO2 emissions.

 

[oldguy]

How much co2 emissions are there when all those race cars go 'round and 'round for hours at a big racetrack?

Or when a spaceship or rocket is launched, like to crash into the moon to see if there's any water vapor there?:what

Things like that make me go "hmmm" sometimes.........

 

[Rampant]

There's a massive drive in the UK to penalise CO2 emissions from private cars. We are supposed to believe that this is an attempt to stop climate change/global warming and save the planet!

To put that into perspective, the UK puts out about 2% of total global CO2 emissions. Vehicles are responsible for at most, 33% of domestic CO2 output. So UK transport contributes 0.66% towards global CO2 production. So even if we ban the internal combustion engine in its entirety for transportation, we would cut global output by a mere 0.66% at the very most.

I feel victimised.

To illustrate... I was in a queue of cars the other day. At the front of the queue was a Prius hybrid, holding everyone back at 45-50mph. The road speed limit was 60mph. Even on a straight piece of well sighted road no-one was willing to overtake. All the cars in the queue were therefore being induced by the hybrid driver to work at sub-optimal efficiency and generate more CO2 than necessary for theirr journey.

Not willing to be delayed at this speed, I overtook about 10 cars in one leap. The CO2 output from that 1 maneouvre probably 'offset' the Prius's CO2 savings for a whole month. The combined inefficiency of the entire motor-train probably 'offset' the Prius's CO2 savings for another month. (The Prius is also known to be a whole-life carbon contributor.)

I'd be willing to wager that everybody else in that queue and particularly the Prius driver were all upset and indignant that I had the audacity to overtake them all. Little do they know that it is they who added more CO2. Meanwhile I am vilified by society.

Breaks my (not-brainwashed) heart to see this ill-informed but well-engineered sanctimonious social behaviour triumph

"Supercars" may emit more CO2 per mile than any other private car, but how many miles per year does the average "supercar" travel and how many supercars are there, by proportion, on UK roads. "Supercars" therefore produce less than 0.01% of transport's total CO2 output. Yet "supercars" are more and more being singled out for increasing taxation and vilification.

The amount of CO2 being produced by a whole day's motor racing pales into insignificance compared to the output created by transporting all the horses for a day of horse-racing, for instance!

 

[oldguy]

The amount of CO2 being produced by a whole day's motor racing pales into insignificance compared to the output created by transporting all the horses for a day of horse-racing, for instance!

Excellent point, more food for thought!

 

[deeaa]

AND if you actually start counting the emissions of public transport, you'll be amazed. A normal car is the second best in emissions level, if there is 1,3 passengers in the car.

 

[deeaa]

BTW I'm not entirely sold on the entire CO2 situation.

I'm basically pro anything that is good for the environment; wind, nuclear etc. power and I try to do my part not to create much pollution etc...and it can't hurt to reduce CO2 emissions, so go for it...

But I'm not sold on it being the main reason at all, or how much can we ever really affect the situation. I suspect that it does add to the problem, but I also know that there will be very warm stretches of time and both 'semi' or little ice ages as well as a proper ice age anyway on earth sooner or later.

Hell, might soon turn out it's actually getting to be a new ice age and we should all start generation huge amounts of CO2 to increase earth temperature...gotta remember, where I live was under 10 kilometres of ice some 20.000 years back...

Anyway. Yeah, well, if you start calculating how UK's share of emissions is...well calculate how little a difference can it make even if every finn alive would generate totally negative CO2 levels...lotsa zeroes in that figure.

But it does add up. Even if all the western world dropped to zero, the east will still be the key in the situation...so is it worth a try even? I guess somebody must try to lead the way with their example anyway.

Even if it might well be a folly the whole shebang...it's still better to try and see if it helped, than give up without a fight, I guess.