Combo v's non-Combo

[Ger the man]

What are the pro's and cons of getting a combo amp over a non-combo (head and cabinet) amp? I assume you can swap and change cabinets going for the non-combo option? Also, lets say you but a 300w head, does that mean you need a cab capable of handling 300w?

Cheers

 

[TS808]

The advantage of a combo is portability, and I tend to like a combo with a 2 x 12 set up. I don't know if there are advantages or disadvantages between the two. With a head, you can certainly try different cabs..whether a 212, 410, or 412 and if you have a stereo head, can separate your cabs.

Yes, if you have a 300 watt head, you definitely want a cab capable of handling at least 300 watts or you may blow a speaker. Also make sure the impedance is correct.

 

[Katastrophe]

What are the pro's and cons of getting a combo amp over a non-combo (head and cabinet) amp? I assume you can swap and change cabinets going for the non-combo option? Also, lets say you but a 300w head, does that mean you need a cab capable of handling 300w?

Cheers

It all depends on what you need the amph for. For playing at home and most gigs, a combo will do just fine. They are more portable and generally cost less than a head and 4x12 cab. I have no problems with volume while playing with my Crate amph, and I have even played on stage at an open mic night with a little Fender 25 watt combo that sounded great once I slapped some effects on it. To be sure, it was cranked, and the drums were relatively quiet, but it worked out fine, without going through a PA. Playing at practice, I haven't had to get the Crate above "2" on the volume knob in order to be heard over drums, bass, steel guitar, acoustic guitar and the singer.

Head and Cab setups just look cool. If you play rock and roll, who hasn't marveled at the wall of Marshalls lining the stage at shows? You can get some great tones from a half stack or full stack setup, and there's nothing like the "WHUMP" that a properly cranked Marshall makes while playing. You can feel it in your chest, and it's awesome.

However, that setup can be expensive. It's also heavy and harder to move around. The question is, do you need that much power? Most musicians these days are saying no and moving to a combo, or a low wattage head/cab like the Epiphone Valve Junior or the Blackheart amphs. A head and 4x12 cabinet are simply too loud for most gigs, IMO. I also like the sound of the little Marshall MG series micro stacks. They look cool and make great bedroom amphs, IMO.

A good compromise for some is moving to a lower wattage head and a 2x12 cabinet. It's as portable as a combo, and are capable of great tones.

Yes, amph heads/cabs can be interchangeable, as long as the ohm rating for the head and cab are compatible. A number of other fretters can elaborate on this better than I can.

Yep, if you were to have a 300 watt head, the cab should be rated to handle that much power. However, a set up like that would be serious overkill for most, if not all needs.

So, to make a long post longer, if you're looking to play at home, look into a combo, one of the low wattage tube head / cabs, or the little Marshall micro stack. Tubes vs. Solid state vs. hybrid amphs are a debate left for another post, and have been discussed before as well.

I wouldn't look into getting full size head/cab unless you're playing big shows without a PA for micing the amphs, and just need tons of volume, or you just want to look cool.

 

[Tone2TheBone]

As it's already been said a combo works for portability. When I first got my Jubilee it was a toss up between the head or the combo. I initially wanted to get the head but I didn't have my 4x12 cabinets yet. I figured I'd get the combo that way I could start using it right away and I could still power cabinets off of it later. I ended up getting the first Jubilee combo in town. 2 heads were already sold on pre-order. 2x12 combos sound the best I think but even single 12s sound ok too when you mess with them and have a great speaker.

 

[Danzego]

I'm going to say some of it also depends on what you plan on playing with it. When I was a metal guy, combos were the quickest way to get a crappy sound. A cab gave that extra "oomph" needed to get that lower end push and not sounding tinny or thin. I swore by 4X12's back in the day.

Now that I've discovered blues, the Fender 4X12 I used for metal sits in the basement (yes, a Fender for metal; the Roc Pro's were an overlooked treasure). You can get some great rock and blues sounds out of combos and I would be quicker to grab one of those for the aforementioned styles (especially blues; rock depends on how "rockin" it is).

 

[sunvalleylaw]

2x12 combos sound the best I think but even single 12s sound ok too when you mess with them and have a great speaker.

Not that it's a Jubilee, but I know you like that old Peavey Classic 30W 1x12 sound! I get plenty of sound for my needs out of my combo. When I have played out, all times but one I have been mic'd into a PA so it was plenty. I like not having to carry all the extra, and it seems efficient to have a combo that does the job. The key would be is it a good sounding cabinet speaker set up on the combo.

 

[Tone2TheBone]

I'm going to say some of it also depends on what you plan on playing with it. When I was a metal guy, combos were the quickest way to get a crappy sound. A cab gave that extra "oomph" needed to get that lower end push and not sounding tinny or thin. I swore by 4X12's back in the day.

Now that I've discovered blues, the Fender 4X12 I used for metal sits in the basement (yes, a Fender for metal; the Roc Pro's were an overlooked treasure). You can get some great rock and blues sounds out of combos and I would be quicker to grab one of those for the aforementioned styles (especially blues; rock depends on how "rockin" it is).

Danzego good observations because that is exactly how I came around to liking combos, even for rock and metal. My 4x12 sits in a closet unplayed. Not because I don't like it but mainly because I don't have room for it in the livingroom! Over the years I've come to know my amp and know how to make it sound huge. Your comments totally parallel my own experience with combos. :beer:

Steve - my answer is a resounding yes! Speakers make a HUGE difference in tone. Cabinet design in combos also plays a major part. The Classic 30 combos are nicely designed for optimum tonal balance I think. You've got a great amp.

 

[Spudman]

Something I've been dealing with in my combos is found in the FAQ at Eurotubes. This is my main dilemma with combos - they eat tubes.

From Eurotubes:

What's that rattle noise coming from my combo amp?
Great question! Combo amps like Peavey Classic 30's, Fender Blues Juniors and Fender Hotrod Deluxes (these are the worst models) are nothing more than torture chambers for tubes because every time you play a note the back wave from the speaker pounds on the tubes. This vibration and continual pounding will shake the guts loose in just about any tube in short order. This is a universal problem with all brands of tubes, and the JJ's are no exception. I have LOTS of NOS tubes including RCA's, Mullards and Telefunkens which are among my favorites that rattle when they get anywhere close to a combo amp.

I get calls all the time from players who have just purchased brand new amps right off the showroom floor asking for new tubes because their tubes are bad. When I ask what the problem is they say have microphonic tubes and that is sounds like broken glass or a jar full of BB's when they play lower notes. I then have the unfortunate task of explaining that this is not microphonic tubes, it is mechanical noise and you have just purchased a torture chamber for tubes...

These noises are heard easily in a quiet environment or trying to record with it rather than playing at a gig where these noises are rarely heard. This is why combo amps are rarely used to record with or extension cabs are used for recording. In most cases just about the time your power tubes are starting to loosing their high end (about six months) they will also start to rattle and if you play at high volumes the rattle can start much earlier.

We test for tube rattle but a tube can be fine one minute and develop a rattle the next and this is something that we nor any other tube vender will warranty. Tubes were never designed to be placed inside of a speaker cabinet...

I get questions about tube rattle all the time from players who hold tubes up to their ears and knock on them to check for rattles and I always tell them one thing, STOP IT! Stop beating on your tubes or we will have to turn you into the ACVT! (Association for the Cruelty to Vacuum Tubes) It's not good for them! You cannot tell if a tube will rattle by holding up to your ear and knocking on it and this is why.

When a power tube is cold the insides of the tube are cold and contracted and in a very different position than when the tube is up to operation temperature. When a tube heats up the internal plate structure including the cathode, anode, filament and other internal components all expand at a greater rate than the glass that houses them. This is why the only thing touching the glass are the mica spacers which have a very small contact area because they literally move against the glass as the internal components expand into position.

So as you knock on a tube when it is cold it will not tell you anything about what it will do when it’s hot. A cold tube can sound perfectly tight and when it gets up to temp it can rattle horribly in a combo amp, and of course the inverse is also true where a tube that appears to rattle cold will be perfectly tight when it’s expanded into position and up to operating temp.

Tube rattle in combo amps, or torture chambers as I call them, is the biggest problem having to do with tubes that there is…

I have been experimenting with some dampening rings to use on the tubes to prevent this but so far I've had only limited success. Until then here are a couple alternatives because you will be battling this problem as long as you own a combo amp.

 

[Duff]

Combo and head/cab amps

Spudman, you are always a great source of great info. I never knew that combo amps were so hard on tubes. I knew they were somewhat hard on them because of being upside down and the heat building up on the socket, but the other facts are new to me and interesting.

I noticed on my relatively new Tweed HRDx with Jensen P12n speaker that the preamp tubes have some foam type stuff around them that just slides on and off. This is probably an attempt to absorb some of the sound vibrations.

As far as my preference goes, I like both combos and stacks.

I rarely take my Epi So. Cal. 4 by 12 eminence speaker cab out of my den. In this sense portability is not an issue because it is mainly stationary and I push it with my Epi VJr and my Blackheart Lil' Giant 3/5 watt heads. This gets plenty loud, amazingly. I mean really loud, even at three watts.

But, I can turn down my VJr or Blackheart to low volumes and it sounds super sweet with all of them speakers vibrating and moving air gently.

So, the experience with a stack can be the opposite of what is assumed; namely that they are too loud to use in a bedroom, at home, etc. It's not the cab, it's the head; where a 50 watt Marshall head may not sound too good turned way down to den volumes, a Lil' Giant or VJr head works just fine at den volume and actually sounds sweet. Also as far as portability goes, it is a non issue for me mainly because the cab, weighing in at around ninety something pounds, doesn't get moved only rarely. So I like the cab's sweet, full sound with the little heads.

It was quite a surprise to find that I could push that cab with those tiny heads. I really like it. For portability I bring along my VJr. matching 1 by 12 cab, which is also a really neat thing.

Combo's of course are also super neat and sound great, even though the facts are that they are torture chambers for tubes. I guess it is a trade off, or an area of engineering or mechanical design that presents the challenge of being improved upon so that the situation is changed from a torture chamber to a more pleasant environment for the tubes to be in, in the combo. Maybe we should email Fender, etc. and send them a copy of that quote Spudman posted, for their consideration. It is possible that an inexpensive design change could improve the combo amps.

Right now I extensively use my Fender Super Champ XD in my den and play myself to sleep all the time. I sit it at the head of my bed where I can change the settings and groove. This gives me lots of extra practice time too. So portability of combo amps is definitely probably the major reason to own one. Although, I must say, at my age, lugging that HRDx around is not exactly portability. But my Crate V8 is no sweat and sounds really good with a multipedal, or even just straight up.

Anyway, I love my So. Cal. 4 by 12 cab in my den being pushed by those little heads. The sound is really enjoyable.

Isn't it ironic how what we sometimes at first think is obvious turns out, later, to be the opposite of what we at first thought?

But I do agree that lugging around a big head with two 100 pound cabs is definitely a portability consideration when compared to lugging around even a big, heavy, high wattage, 2 by 12 combo.

Duffy

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Hey Spudman... be sure to tell us how Duhvoodooman's old Delta Blues combo does when it arrives.

You think Stevie Ray was worried about how badly his combos were treating his tubes? Or Eric? Tubes are cheap come on! They last 20 years...at least!

Fear...no...combo.

 

[Kazz]

The only thing I can add to this is...remember....most combo amps...or at least most that I have seen have an output in the back to push a cabinet as well...it is kind of like the best of both worlds.

I can speak for my Classic 30....while I would love to hear what she sounds like pushing a cabinet....just the combo alone is way too loud for house playing.

 

[Spudman]

Hey Spudman... be sure to tell us how Duhvoodooman's old Delta Blues combo does when it arrives.
.

I'll be gigging with it tonight and tomorrow. It already has serious tube rattle with the JJs. I can hear it in the house very well but as Bob says below often at gigs you can't tell because of all the other noise from other instruments and whatnot.

 

[Brian Krashpad]

Wouldn't having an open-back combo solve much of the tube rattle prob? I have a '66 Super Reverb that still had the original tubes in it when I bought it in the early 90's! So it's currently on it's second set of tubes in 42 years!

This sounds like a solution looking for a problem to me.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

I put a tube tamer in my C-30 and I do not notice a rattle at this time. Maybe it is theoretically hard on tubes as the JJ guys say, (who am I to argue?), but for me that is a theoretical and not practical point. I am not having a problem with it.

 

[oldguy]

There are so many variables in any combo amp that may or may not contribute to tube rattle, that it's hard to take a blanket approach to what a "1x12 or 2x12, etc." model will or won't do. In general, tho, a well designed combo that has an isolation factor built in to keep the tubes away from vibration usually works well. You have to also consider whether the amp cab is solid wood, like birch, or plywood/particle board, where it's glued/screwed, how the speaker baffle board is made/mounted, etc, etc, ouch, I'm getting a headache, but there are lots of factors......:thwap:
Spud's quote from Bob Pletka is correct, though. When you put a glass tube full of wire sealed in a vacuum, and heated to extreme temperatures, inside a cabinet with a speaker vibrating and punching sound waves to and fro at any SPL, noise or rattle will occur at some point.
The older Fenders seemed to have the chassis mounted in such a way that tube rattle wasn't a problem once they were cranked up. They also had the little spring loaded cans to hold the preamp tubes. Same with some older Peavey's. I had one 1x12 Carvin that sounded like you were shaking a sack full of glass bottles when played at low volume. Hated it.
I'm pretty sure tube dampeners and the like wouldn't sell if it weren't a real problem on some amps, though.......:whatever:

 

[ZMAN]

I recently had exactly what Spudmans article described. Brand new 65 Deluxe Amp. I had it home five minutes when I noticed the dreaded microphonic tube noise. I tried to get past it put of course it was what I thought a bad tube from the factory. I took it back and they put a couple of replacements and It was good. I only play at home and it has started again.
When I bought my Blues Deluxe reissue I had the same thing but it seems to have gone away! Of course I don't play it was much. I have never had a problem with my blues Junior in about 4 years.
I am seriously thinking amp and cab for my next purchase, and I was thinking marshall. But they all seem to be too big for my uses. I would like to see a 30 watt head in the vintage modern series. I could then get a small cab. The 50 watts are too big for me.
I might be wrong though. It seems that a lot of the smaller amps are only presented in the combo set up.
I also was wondering if the tube companies are just putting out an inferior product now, and using this as an excuse.

 

[oldguy]

I am seriously thinking amp and cab for my next purchase, and I was thinking marshall. But they all seem to be too big for my uses. I would like to see a 30 watt head in the vintage modern series. I could then get a small cab. The 50 watts are too big for me.

Marshall's 18w. is pretty popular. There are a lot of people building clones of it as well.
They have a 20watter as well, the 2061x.



http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Marshall-2061X-Handwired-20W-Amp-Head?sku=482707

Most owners either love or hate them, as some of them had issues blowing fuses and/or transformers. Everyone seems to agree the sound of either is the bee's knees, tho.

 

[ZMAN]

What is the model number of the 18 watt?

 

[oldguy]

It was the 1974x, I think. I don't believe Marshall offers the head version, tho. Just a combo. But you can get various clones of it in a head version. The 20w you can get in a hand wired head from Marshall.

 

[Spudman]

I said that I had noticed the dreaded tube rattle at home in my Delta Blues. At the gig it was not present and that is all that mattered to me.

 

[Brian Krashpad]

It was the 1974x, I think. I don't believe Marshall offers the head version, tho. Just a combo. But you can get various clones of it in a head version. The 20w you can get in a hand wired head from Marshall.

If you don't mind taking out another mortgage.

 

[oldguy]

If you don't mind taking out another mortgage.

I know, Brian, I know.
I just pass the info along, I don't set the prices. I did mention the clones of the amp, tho, they can be had for less cash. :munch:

 

[indianjjy]

combo vs. non combo

Impedance is VERY important on a non combo, or if you are building a combo amp. I built a 15 watt combo, 3 - 12ax7 pre amp, 2 - EL84 power amp and put a 12 inch Eminence 'Swamp Thang' speaker with a 3 spring accutronics reverb unit. Bought the chassis off of ebay and made a finger-jointed box out of #1 pine. Used a matched trio of Electroharmonix pre amp tubes, and a matched pair of JJ Tesla power tubes. The speaker is a 150 watt speaker, I also installed dampers on each tube. Though this is just a 15 watt class a amp,IMHO this will fill any room with warm rich sound. This is a 16 ohm chassis and as stated earlier,IMPEDANCE is very important. On this chassis,anything lower than 16 ohms and the chance of overheating the chassis and ruining a good amp is very possible.

 

[TS808]

I know, Brian, I know.
I just pass the info along, I don't set the prices. I did mention the clones of the amp, tho, they can be had for less cash. :munch:

If you're looking for an "affordable" hand-wired Marshall 18-watt clone, take a serious look at the one from Sligo Amps at www.sligoamps.com

I had one made with 2 x 12 Celestion Greenbacks for less than half the cost of the Marshall. It carries alot of volume for an 18-watt amp..definitely enough to carry a room.