Curing Acoustic Set Up Ills.

[sunvalleylaw]

Dreadman graciously offered his knowledge on setting up acoustics and curing common ills. See below:

QUOTE
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunvalleylaw
It now has some serious fret buzzing issues and a hump in the neck where it joins the body and needs some work. If I fret high E at 10 at get a note at 12 or 13 right now." end SV quote


Dreadman then said:
Very common problem. If you want more info about it and the steps for a low effort, low cost do-it-yourself repair start a new thread and I'll post what I know. END QUOTE"


My acoustic has fret buzzing issues in open position, and due to what I am told is a hump in the neck where it joins the body, frets improperly. Example, fret high E string at 10 and get a note somewhere at 12 or 13. Seems to affect the higher pitched strings mostly. The Martin rep, when he was at the local store last year giving a seminar and giving out free re-stringings, said my nut may be a bit low and might ultimately need some shimming or something. He had it set up so it played better than before, monkeying around with my adjustable truss rod, but my guitar weeks later fell, and that good set up went away. I like the guitar, but it is not worth much I don't think, and don't want to spend much on a set up or repair. Here is a clip that demonstrates the fret buzzing problem. (ok, no jokes about the playing being the problem. I am working on that. )

http://www.box.net/shared/9h25rks0s4

Thanks Dreadman, and any of you other knowledgeable acoustic folk, for any help you can offer.

 

[Tone2TheBone]

The first thing I'd do is shim the bridge first...then maybe put a whole new tusq nut on it. Not saying it's the best thing to do mind you just the first thing I would do. And then I'd have me a beer.

 

[luvmyshiner]

Steve, Dread's the "go to man" on these issues, but my understanding is that the dreaded (heh, heh) 12th fret hump can be caused by humidity problems. I began having a similar problem with my D10S about a month ago. Two weeks in a hard shell case with a humidifier took care of the problem. I did have to adjust the truss rod after the guitar re-humidified, but no biggie there.

There are a lot of little humidifiers commercially available. I use a home made one that Pike suggested on that "other" forum:

It's just a soap box, with holes drilled in the top, and a damp sponge inside. I would probably give that a shot before looking at adjusting the action.

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Hey Shiner how often do you put the soapbox in the guitar case? Here in NM as you know it's dryer than dirt and I want to make sure mah new Martini is well taken care of.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

My guitar had no humidification for the first 5 or 6 years I owned it, and I was not playing it much then. When I started playing it regularly, I started using one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-GUITAR-VIOL...ryZ47077QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


It seemed to help, but I was not super regular, and over time it got worse. Humidity is part of the issue I think, but I think it has set up woes as well.

 

[luvmyshiner]

Hey Tone. Most of the year our humidity level runs right around 46% which is great. During the winter months when we run our heater a lot (gas), the humidity drops to 30-35%. That's the time we usually start having problems. I start watching the guitars closer when the humidity drops below 40% for signs of humidity problems. Things like changes in the top of the guitar, the dreaded 12th fret hump, or unidentified buzzes and such. If I see any signs I go ahead and case the guitar with a humidifier.

Some of the guitars are more susceptible to humidity problems than others. I'm not sure why.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Taylors are reported to not do well up here in the high desert. Thin top. Martins, and the Gibsons made in Montana, also intermountain, do better.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Steve, Dread's the "go to man" on these issues, but my understanding is that the dreaded (heh, heh) 12th fret hump can be caused by humidity problems. I began having a similar problem with my D10S about a month ago. Two weeks in a hard shell case with a humidifier took care of the problem. I did have to adjust the truss rod after the guitar re-humidified, but no biggie there.

There are a lot of little humidifiers commercially available. I use a home made one that Pike suggested on that "other" forum:

It's just a soap box, with holes drilled in the top, and a damp sponge inside. I would probably give that a shot before looking at adjusting the action.

That is a good idea. A local guy who owns a lot of nice guitars uses a sponge in a plastic baggie with holes also. Cheaper and easier yet. I may try to get the guitar re-humidified that way, as the old school Herco one (clay in a plastic tin) does not seem to add enough humidity for this guitar's needs.

 

[Cal]

During "central heating" season I use two "super guitar Dampits."

One in the guitar body, hanging off the E and A strings, and one sitting loose above the accessories compartment. I also keep a digital hygrometer (here's a cheap one) in the case and aim for around 50% RH.

I first discovered this remedy from Dreadman when my D13S got "the hump." :messedup:

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Ok, certainly I have humidity issues in this guitar, but the set up is also off. I know this because the Martin guy had it working pretty good, and when the gig bag dropped it, all that changed. I think I may need some set up with the truss rod, and also Tone's suggestion might be really good. But I am waiting on hearing from the Dreadman.

 

[luvmyshiner]

Good point Cal, everyone needs at least one digital hygrometer to keep track of humidity. I have four. One that I use to keep track of the general humidity in the house, and three small ones that I put in cases.

Steve, I would still recommend making sure your guitar is properly humidified prior to doing a set up. If you set up your guitar, then humidify it, the changes in the guitar may require another set up afterwards.

Oh, and absolutely wait for Dread to check in before doing anything. That bugger always seems to pick up on things I either miss, or don't know about.:master:

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Good thread you guys keep it up.

Steve how do you think the Martin will do where I live? I'm at 5000' above sea level but like you there in Idaho...it's high and dry. Where do I get one of those hydrometer or hygrometer thingies?

 

[Cal]

Steve, could you take a pic looking sideways down the neck... something like this:

That would give us a fair idea as to what might be going on.
(Notice the top of the frets are virtually in a dead straight line... aiming for the top of the bridge.)

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Yeah, I can do that, hopefully tonight.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Good thread you guys keep it up.

Steve how do you think the Martin will do where I live? I'm at 5000' above sea level but like you there in Idaho...it's high and dry. Where do I get one of those hydrometer or hygrometer thingies?

I would take care of it, but given decent care, they are not reputed to be super vulnerable, like the Taylors are reputed to be. Note I say reputed. I am just going on hearsay from guys at the shop and other local guitarists. Like I was mentioning, one local musician/sound guy who has a lot of nice guitars including Martins apparently does fine with the sponge technique. The Martins in the shop I frequent seem to do fine. The shop is humidified, but it is a big room and the door to the outside opens and closes a lot. They seem to do fine.

So given the level of care you give your stuff, I would think your new baby will be fine. :AOK:

 

[Tone2TheBone]

I would take care of it, but given decent care, they are not reputed to be super vulnerable, like the Taylors are reputed to be. Note I say reputed. I am just going on hearsay from guys at the shop and other local guitarists. Like I was mentioning, one local musician/sound guy who has a lot of nice guitars including Martins apparently does fine with the sponge technique. The Martins in the shop I frequent seem to do fine. The shop is humidified, but it is a big room and the door to the outside opens and closes a lot. They seem to do fine.

So given the level of care you give your stuff, I would think your new baby will be fine. :AOK:

Well we have forced air heating AND burn the woodstove in the winter time and that eats up any moisture in the air real quick. I never even thought about what it does to guitars especially acoustic guitars until now. All the shops in town have their acoustics inside a closed room with humidifiers cranking away and now I suppose I'll have to do the same. My other acoustics seem to be doing ok though...I have no visible problems with them at all and I guess that's why I never paid it much thought.

 

[Cal]

Well we have forced air heating AND burn the woodstove in the winter time and that eats up any moisture in the air real quick. I never even thought about what it does to guitars especially acoustic guitars until now. All the shops in town have their acoustics inside a closed room with humidifiers cranking away and now I suppose I'll have to do the same. My other acoustics seem to be doing ok though...I have no visible problems with them at all and I guess that's why I never paid it much thought.

Tone, I'd guess the RH in your home is currently around the 25% mark. Too dry for solid wood acoustics.

The laminated wood babies fare quite well in all sorts of humidity for obvious reasons. But bear in mind that most fretboards are solid and you don't want the fret ends slicing your fingers off when the board shrinks. Also, any humidity excesses will affect the neck itself (usually through the fretboard as the back of the neck is normally sealed by its finish), which I think is probably Steve's problem.

So, during the winter I'd keep your guitars in their hard cases with humidifiers that let the moisture get to the whole guitar (Shiner's DIY ones are superb) and have a digital hygrometer in the case too, to make sure the RH is around 50%.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Tone, I'd guess the RH in your home is currently around the 25% mark. Too dry for solid wood acoustics.

The laminated wood babies fare quite well in all sorts of humidity for obvious reasons. But bear in mind that most fretboards are solid and you don't want the fret ends slicing your fingers off when the board shrinks. Also, any humidity excesses will affect the neck itself (usually through the fretboard as the back of the neck is normally sealed by its finish), which I think is probably Steve's problem.

So, during the winter I'd keep your guitars in their hard cases with humidifiers that let the moisture get to the whole guitar (Shiner's DIY ones are superb) and have a digital hygrometer in the case too, to make sure the RH is around 50%.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for your 2 cents! Done...I'm ordering one of those gadgets right now thank you for your assessment sir.

Btw Stephen S.T. Esquire I didn't mean to hijack your thread sorry!

 

[KrisH]

Underhumidification can masquerade as many different problems. I played my old Hohner for several years, treating the fret buzzes by raising the saddle with shims and obliviously blaming the humped neck on bad construction. I finally decided that the neck on that guitar had serious problems, and bought my first new guitar -- a Washburn. But within a few weeks, it started exhibiting the same symptoms.

Enter Dreadman :master: , who posted on the WGF, where I went for help with my new **** guitar. I took the advice he gave and humidified the guitar and lo -- the buzzing stopped, the neck straightened out. I tried the treatment on the Hohner, and it ended up not having a neck problem at all. After letting both guitars reach a happy level of humidification, I did setups on them, complete with new bone saddles for each. And they both played just fine. (The Washburn had other unrelated problems.)

Ultimately, I got more guitars and other instruments sensitive to humidity extremes, and I thought it best to put a humidifier in each room of the house once the heating kicked in. You never know where you'll find a guitar, fiddle or bass propped up in our home! Besides, it helps with static electricity, sinuses, and general comfort .

So it might be a good idea to get the wood in the guitar back in decent condition before tweaking the truss rod or shimming up the saddle. But don't rehumidify it too quickly! It's the sudden changes in in moisture content that cause different parts of the guitar to contract or expand disproportionately, and could cause permanent damage.

That's just my experience, and what has been taught to me.

 

[Dreadman]

Sorry I'm late to the party. I get lost in here sometimes.

Everyone's got good advice so I don't know how much more I can add. SVL's guitar is definitely seeing the effects of low humidity. Here's a quick list of low humidity related problems:

1.) Sunken top - A "flat top" guitar isn't actually flat. The top and back are radius-ed, meaning that they are like guitar shaped sections cut out of a big ball. When humidity gets low wood shrinks, primarily in the cross-grain direction. That means the width of a guitars top tries to get smaller. First it flattens out (loses it's dome shape), then the area between the soundhole and bridge dips down

2.) Cracks - If left dry long enough the top cracks along the grain. This is because the sides are holding the edges of the top while it shrinks so it gives somewhere in the middle, like a paper towel being pulled apart by the edges.

3.) Humped neck - When overly dry the fretboard (and to some extent, the neck) wood shrinks too. The hump where the fretboard meets the body isn't actually high, it's the rest of the fretboard/neck that has gotten low. The area in question stays high because the heel is under it and that makes more wood that would have to dry out before deforming.

4.) Neck warps, twists, bows, etc.... - Wood is a dynamic material and no two pieces are alike. When over dried (or, to a lesser extent over humidified) it can do all kinds of unexpected things. If the grain curves ever so slightly then drying it out could cause exaggeration of that curve. These issues aren't especially common in comparison to the three above so I won't go on and on.


The cure for all of this (if the instrument hasn't developed a permanent defect) is simply - add moisture (as noted in previous posts). This can be done by either adding humidity to the room that the guitar lives in or adding humidity to it in it's case (room humidifier vs. case humidifier). The trick is to be patient and add moisture slowly. Several weeks is typical so don't be discouraged after a week.


Taylor guitars are built with especially thin tops (lending to their signature sound) and that's why they must be cared for especially well. A lot of people bash Taylors for this reason but it's not fair. Thin tops are a way of pushing the envelope and, just like with cars, if you're going to go high performance there are extra precautions. Speaking of Taylor, here's Bob Taylor himself explaining about humidity in guitars - http://www.taylorguitars.com/see-hear/ Watch the video called "Humidity: The Symptoms". If you look around there there is also a video called "Understanding Humidity" - both are must see material.

SVL - if re-humidification doesn't fix your hump you'll have to consider having the frets (at least the few at the neck/body) leveled and crowned. It's not too expensive, as long as the rest of the frets are in reasonable condition a luthier or tech can probably lower the offending frets for less than $50.

I didn't hear any open string buzzing in your (very pleasing) recording but if you say it's there I believe you. Do this check - Hold down the low E string at the 3rd fret and look how close the string comes to the top of the second fret. You should be able to just slide a piece of paper between them (about .005"). If it's too close to see tap on the string above the second fret wire and listen for a "clinking" sound. If you hear it there's clearance and your nut slot is fine. Repeat this on all six strings. If your nut slots are indeed low (strings touching the second fret during this test) let us know and we'll hook ya up with some DIY nut raising info.

I may add more later after I re-read this and see what I forgot. LOL

 

[Dreadman]

Oh yeah - 40% - 60% relative humidity is ideal for acoustic guitars. Higher RH will cause expansion of the wood which will raise the action, deaden the sound slightly and a few other minor things. Very little risk of damage though. My guitars have spent many summers in 80% - 90% RH with very little lasting effect. At the other end is where damage comes from. 20% RH for any extended period of time is a guitar killer.

In reality, every acoustic guitar owner should own at least one digital hygrometer (the needle type aren't as accurate). $10-$20 gets you a lot of information that's paramount to your guitars health.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Ok here is a link to some pics. I hope I got the angles right. If not, let me know I and I will re-shoot. I put it up quick on a .Mac page without editing well the text for the page, so kindly ignore any gibberish on the page.

http://web.mac.com/sunvalleylaw/Site/Last_Import.html



So it sounds like getting a hygrometer is in order, and making a coupla sponge thingies, and keeping moisture in them. No good letting them dry out, huh! I did the check you recommended Dread, and it is a close call on a couple. Paper will slide through, but I have to push on a couple. G, Low E, and high E seem a little sticky on the test. Also, though I get clinks on those strings, not very loud ones. We shall see how re-humidifying works.

Thanks for your 2 cents! Done...I'm ordering one of those gadgets right now thank you for your assessment sir.

Btw Stephen S.T. Esquire I didn't mean to hijack your thread sorry!

I don't consider that really a hijack, it is germane. Besides, what's a little hijacking among friends. Sounds like we are both in the market for some sponges, baggies or soapboxes and digital hygrometers. Cheap insurance I'd say.

 

[Dreadman]

I could see the hump right away in the first two pics. The fretting problem high on the neck that you mentioned is the dead giveaway though.

I'd prescribe 50%-70% RH for two weeks, maybe three. Use either a room humidifier with hygrometer in the room or a couple case humidifiers with a hygrometer in the case.

If you do it in the case make sure the fretboard and one humidifier are in the same "air space". The other humidifier should be near the body, preferably in the soundhole. In some tight fitting guitar cases you can't humidify a fretboard effectively because the fretboard is covered by the plush case top. A big chipboard case would be better.

If you humidify a whole room just leave the guitar there. If it's in a case re-wet the humidifiers daily and check the progress.

Here's a cool litle trick - Tune it perfectly before you start humidification. As the wood absorbs moisture it will grow in size and the pitch of the strings will go up. You can re-tune it every day or two and get a feel for how much water it's absorbing. When the strings pitch stays in tune for a few days in a row you know the wood is at an equal humidity as the environment (no more growth). Of course before that point you'll probably have already noticed the hump is gone (or lowered significantly).

(EDITED TO ADD) You'll also notice the action going up during humidification. This is the top regaining it's domed shape (therefore lifting the bridge back up) and it's just what you want. If we can get the hump out of there, and you'd like to, we'll go through a set up next.

 

[Dreadman]

If you're getting the clinks then your nut slots are probably fine. It's okay if the paper is tight, as long as it goes. All you're looking for is that the string isn't resting on the fret.

(EDITED TO ADD) Just a note - those who play acoustics hard will want this "nut action" a little bit higher than a sheet of paper, just like they'd want the rest of the action higher. Hard strums cause the strings to vibrate in a wider path so you want the frets a bit further away to prevent buzzing.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Thanks Dreadman. I won't be able to do whole room so case humidification it is. My case is a large archtop:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Musicians-Gear-Vintage-Dreadnought-Archtop-Case?sku=541694

(BTW, for the money, it is a nice case).

Getting a humidifier in the same airspace as the fretboard will be interesting. I could put one up by the headstock, and one in the sound hole for sure.

That trick you mentioned is interesting. I had noticed before that when we travel to western Washington State each summer, my guitar would go sharp on the way over, and flat on the way back. I figured it was due to this. After about 3 days, it would steady itself. But even after several days this time, the hump did not go away (though it lessened some), and it was still a buzzy. More than the year before when I also brought it on the trip. It was hugely humid too this last trip. You know, when your clothes get damp feeling just hanging out.

I could see the hump right away in the first two pics. The fretting problem high on the neck that you mentioned is the dead giveaway though.

I'd prescribe 50%-70% RH for two weeks, maybe three. Use either a room humidifier with hygrometer in the room or a couple case humidifiers with a hygrometer in the case.

If you do it in the case make sure the fretboard and one humidifier are in the same "air space". The other humidifier should be near the body, preferably in the soundhole. In some tight fitting guitar cases you can't humidify a fretboard effectively because the fretboard is covered by the plush case top. A big chipboard case would be better.

If you humidify a whole room just leave the guitar there. If it's in a case re-wet the humidifiers daily and check the progress.

Here's a cool litle trick - Tune it perfectly before you start humidification. As the wood absorbs moisture it will grow in size and the pitch of the strings will go up. You can re-tune it every day or two and get a feel for how much water it's absorbing. When the strings pitch stays in tune for a few days in a row you know the wood is at an equal humidity as the environment (no more growth). Of course before that point you'll probably have already noticed the hump is gone (or lowered significantly).

 

[Dreadman]

That case will probably cover the fretboard too tightly. You could always do it in a garbage bag or cardboard box. Be creative.

 

[luvmyshiner]

In some tight fitting guitar cases you can't humidify a fretboard effectively because the fretboard is covered by the plush case top.

One thing I've tried is to take a piece of heavy paper, and cut it down to size to place over the fretboard when you close the case. It makes, like a little tunnel to help keep the case top from sealing off the fretboard.

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Wow these are really good tips. A veritable cornucopia of information. My daughter's taking violin lessons so her teacher also informed us of the effects of this dry climate here at home so yeah care of expensive violins is just as important as care of expensive guitars.

 

[mrmudcat]

Thats what I like to see some rocking in the accoustic house!!!!! Great posts by every:beer: one!!!

 

[sunvalleylaw]

I looked again at the case last night as I loaded in a freshly made "Sponge in a bag" humidifier and re-wetted the Herco. The arch over the body of the guitar leaves some room, and I bet combining that with the paper trick might work. I may also trash bag it for a while to be sure. I put the sponge in the sound hole, in the body, and the Herco between the body and the neck where it joins. There is a cavity there with some room. I may put another sponge up in the cavity for the head stock also. (Just to get the thing goin, like mojo nixon says.) I have to go find a digital hygrometer too, or order one in. I am not too worried about over humidifying right now as the climate is very dry right now, and the heat is being used in the house, as it is still getting to single digit temps at night.


Now, just because this thread is generating so much good info, let's have the tips on low nut slots, and other set up tips for our acoustic git-boxes. Thanks guys for all the participation. R

EDIT: The increased humidity by using the sponge trick and doubling up with one sponge humidifier, and the Herco pill box kind I already had, is already starting to make a difference. Thanks guys, I am really encouraged! I had been bummed about my first guitar that my wife had gotten me. I am going to get that thing humming again!