Disturbing event here in Camrose

[tot_Ou_tard]

Look at our popular culture - death and destruction on TV and in movies as entertainment and then (apologies to you gamers) video games in which you score points for perpetrating horrific acts of violence.... Why should we be so surprised?

When I grew up boys used to put firecrackers in frogs. I hated that & said so, I got teased a lot, but that's nothing in the scheme of things.

 

[R_of_G]

I would want to understand the instant facts and the social histories involved before saying anything more specific however.

And that's exactly my point Steve. Every case is unique.

 

[R_of_G]

People in general were less cynical then, more caring about their neighbors and even strangers, and more moral and ethical than today.

Now that is a matter of perspective. For example, I doubt very many who lived under segregation would consider the 1950's a more moral/ethical time than today when it does not exist. Morals/ethics can only be subjective as there is no such thing as absolute truth in which to ground them. We can all agree that something sounds ethical but does that make it universally true? Does anything make it universally true? I certainly don't think so. I'm not saying as a society we shouldn't strive to determine an ethical code, but when we decide that it is something that applies in all situations across the board we are teetering on the edge of authoritarianism.

BTW, thanks to Spud for expanding this thread. This is the most interesting OT discussion we've had and I think we are all doing a good job of respecting one another [not that I am surprised by that].

 

[Bloozcat]

Now that is a matter of perspective. For example, I doubt very many who lived under segregation would consider the 1950's a more moral/ethical time than today when it does not exist. Morals/ethics can only be subjective as there is no such thing as absolute truth in which to ground them. We can all agree that something sounds ethical but does that make it universally true? Does anything make it universally true? I certainly don't think so. I'm not saying as a society we shouldn't strive to determine an ethical code, but when we decide that it is something that applies in all situations across the board we are teetering on the edge of authoritarianism.

BTW, thanks to Spud for expanding this thread. This is the most interesting OT discussion we've had and I think we are all doing a good job of respecting one another [not that I am surprised by that].

Relax R_of_G, it was a general statement of an overview of society as a whole back then. Yes, there were specific issues back then that have been addressed as time has passed, but this should not be seen as a zero sum game. To put it in a more positive light, think of the better aspects of society back then, accompianied by advances in civil rights right along with it. They don't have to be mutually exclusive of each other. In fact, if these two issues had evolved together as I've described, perhaps there would have been less of a breakdown of the black family. I work a lot (most of my time in the field) in black areas, and it's really disheartening to see the dysfunction. Again, if society in general had more of a committment to family, don't you think that this could have translated into a higher level of committment in the black community as well? You've jumped from a general premise to the specific to the absolute in your arguement R_of_G. Societal norms are never absolute, they're just the prevailing mores of that society as dictated by the people of that society in general. My only wish in this is that society could have realized the need for maintaining societal committments in general , just as it had in realizing that inequality and segregation was wrong specifically.

 

[R_of_G]

Relax? I'd ask how you could determine my mood from typed words but what's the point. I think I'll just bow out of this thread. For the record, I'm as calm as a still pond, but it's irrelevant.

 

[Bloozcat]

Relax? I'd ask how you could determine my mood from typed words but what's the point. I think I'll just bow out of this thread. For the record, I'm as calm as a still pond, but it's irrelevant.

It's ok, buddy!

I guess you could say that the underlined, italicized, and bold, that sort of came off as a little excited...

 

[R_of_G]

It's all good Bloozcat. You're still cool with me. If I came across in anyway as offensive to you I cry your pardon. I've enjoyed this thread and though we disagree I respect both your opinion and the well thought out way youve expressed it so far. :AOK:

 

[Bloozcat]

It's all good Bloozcat. You're still cool with me. If I came across in anyway as offensive to you I cry your pardon. I've enjoyed this thread and though we disagree I respect both your opinion and the well thought out way youve expressed it so far. :AOK:

Same here! No offense intended, no offense taken. :AOK:

I just enjoy debates. It's always good to hear opposing points of view, lest we get a little stale in our thinking...

 

[just strum]

Hey Strummy, howzabout a pic of said 30 lb. feline ?

Ok, it will help take the edge off of the thread. I agree it's a good thread, but maybe the interpretation got a little twisted.

Ok, I never took a picture of her, but I tracked her down. I tried to pick her up and give you a shot on the scale, but she would have no part of it. She doesn't look 30+, but my son has weighed her and I can assure you she is over 30. As you can tell, she's really pissed at me.

She weights more than these two deadbeats put together.

 

[R_of_G]

It's always good to hear opposing points of view, lest we get a little stale in our thinking...

Exactly! If we all thought the same way about everything, the world would be very boring.

 

[just strum]

Exactly! If we all thought the same way about everything, the world would be very boring.

...and almost assured to be doomed.

It's different view points that keep things honest or as close to honest as possible.:AOK:

 

[ted s]

Neat pics Strum, some of my best friends are cats and dogs

Has ElCato experienced any kidney or liver issues being a "big boned" girl ?

 

[pie_man_25]

Pie_man_25,

My question was rhetorical, there are no purely pacifist societies. They cannot exist in a world where violence is inherent.



For me truth is an elastic concept. Who's truth? How many people have died fighting over the "truth" of your capenter's words?



Being a pacifist is pretty cut and dried for me. Anyone who uses violence for any reason is not pacifist by my definition. Thus, you can see the dilema: how do you insure that your beliefs continue on if you can be wiped out by violence at any time.

I agree with you, an eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind. Rather, I would see these individuals punished by being made to wear an orange prison jumpsuit, chained together and out on the highways year around picking up trash. Maybe two or three years of this and then put on probation so that they could be watched. If they showed no signs of sociopathy, then they would have paid their debt. If they showed little or no remorse, then they would be locked away to prevent them from being a threat to society.

tung

what you should also consider, is that this carpenter you ignorantly assumed was mine I never really believed in, I simply used it as a reference to say that this isn't solving anything, and yes I can see your point that much killing has been done in his name, which is exactly why I don't believe in him anymore. However, who's to say that that kid deserves to be put in a jumpsuit, after all if there is no real truth then who are we to say that this kid truly deserves this fate, what do you say if he isn't a sociopath? I'm sorry you now have a criminal record, have gone through with that and you can't get a job and I ruined your life? But at the same time,if he is a sociopath, he should be put ins some sort of assylum, I agree with you there, but who sould decide what fate befalls him is my question to you.

we should remember that insanity is measured by those thought to be sane, what is sane? what is right and wrong? is society right? I mean, this one guy beat the **** out of a 93 year-old man because he couldn't get out of the way fast enough, and people are barely ever saving seats for the elderly on buses anymore, those who wear hats rarely ever tip them. But at the same time, in this day age people are more free to accept political opinions and decide faith and jobs for themselves, are we willing to trade freedom for decency? how free is too free? how do we define decency? should we try to be both, accepting and decent? what I'm trying to say is that society literally can't be perfect.

 

[just strum]

I agree with you, an eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind. Rather, I would see these individuals punished by being made to wear an orange prison jumpsuit, chained together and out on the highways year around picking up trash. Maybe two or three years of this and then put on probation so that they could be watched. If they showed no signs of sociopathy, then they would have paid their debt. If they showed little or no remorse, then they would be locked away to prevent them from being a threat to society.

tung

Chain a bunch of sociopaths to each other and living together probably reduces the odds of them coming out three years later being remorseful. Where do criminals learn new scams, new ways to harm others - you probably would find most learn it in prison. Should we just kill them? It cost more to kill someone than it does to lock them up for life (all their free legal advise and cost of court time, appeals...).

This thread has so many side subjects, but the subject of punishment continues to come to the surface. Give me an example of one form of punishment utilized today that actually deters or reeducates the one being punished. Locking up the truly harden criminals is understandable, but locking up people for offenses like armed robbery, selling pot - well you get the idea. Anyone that comes out of prison and turns their life around has beaten the odds.

Another area that breeds crime, is poverty. I lived it, I came out of it and I will tell you right now that poverty is a recruiting ground for crime. Look at it on a grander scale - human bombers are usually from poor families and poor parts of the world. The leaders of these organizations would like you to think they do it for faith and their country, village, town or whatever, but so many of them are promised large sums of money for their family. How often do you hear about a wealthy man strapping a bomb to himself and walking into a store and blowing it up? Does oshama bin ladin have the ba77s to strap a bomb to his chest or fly a plane into a building - No, he recruits from poor regions of the world.

We need to reallocate our money for prisons and poor parts of the world to go towards eduction and housing and I feel we would see a drastic reduction in crime.

Thank you for your time and vote for me when you go to the polling booth.

 

[Spudman]

Sorry Strum. I can't vote for a man who doesn't know that the only real form of punishment that has been proven to correct and deter further criminal actions is being forced to listen to "Achy Breaky Heart" 24 hours a day. If you are planning to run for office you need to know these things.

 

[R_of_G]

Locking up the truly harden criminals is understandable, but locking up people for offenses like armed robbery, selling pot - well you get the idea.

Armed robbery and selling pot are comparable? When you add a weapon to the crime, you add the possibility that the weapon will be used. For example the guys that broke into Shawn Taylor's house and wound up shooting him intended to just commit robbery. When their intended victim turned out to be home, it escalated to murder. Without the gun that would not have happened. It'd still just be robbery though they'd have been caught. I'm not sure adding the potential for fatal violence can be compared to selling pot.

BTW Strum, I do agree with the rest of your post, particularly that none of our means of "punishment" actually do anything to prevent further crime.

 

[Justaguyin_nc]

Selling pot attached to armed robbers? Are you serious?
(only reason I posted in this again)
I never knew a soul on pot that went out and robbed more than a twinkie!
Selling meth/coke/crack maybe..but not pot! There is a HUGE difference.
Legalize it already! What a nice tax collection we can add!!:bravo:

now my added rant...(we all have them)

The poor (raises hand) who have lived through crimes
ranging from home invasions, armed robberies etc etc.

I lived through it and not blinded by give peace a chance although it would be nice.
Guns are needed in every home to prevent this.

The police can't be everyplace and are less likely to be in your POOR neighborhood when you need them.

Until you been home invaded or mugged and felt helpless at the time, you just wont get it. but will after.

I like the 3rd world laws for crimes and believe they have
less internal crime then we do.

don't pay your tax, prison used as slave labor.

Theft, cut off a hand.

Anything worse, Kill'em.

But then they kinda get crazy about women
compared to men and blow it. sigh

Take away all these rights we give those in prisons
and quit making them comfortable while the poor
freeze in the winter and burn through the summers
and go hungry.
Humane treatment does not include a
fittness room.

The average POOR person has a better home in prison.
Although not as nice a time with their neighbors.

Chain gangs, no air, little heat and basic food to survive
is how a prisoner should be treated.
That is why they are prisoners.
Then they probably would not want to be repeat offenders.

This has been a good thread for thought.
Unfortunate it seems, so many still believe in love and peace throughout the world.

You wont ever see it, Just enjoy the moments you do.

While the flowers are put in the barrels of guns, those
holding the guns will just grin and shoot it back at them.

Genicide, cleansing.. look around.. it's all happening every
day people.
head in the ground or your arse? pull it out already.

Ofcourse all this is meaningless.. the thread I mean.. think about
it..
From kids killing cats to all this religion to guns to theft
to smoking pot..whats the point?

we all got internet, guitars and someplace to use them in.
So we are not poor.. anymore..
and those kids killing that cat..
well, they probably will go with a slap on the wrist.
While We, will start another GAS thread... holding on to our opinions
and beliefs till something does happen to ummm us...which changes them.:thwap:

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Justa - Finally a gun thread! I'm in. *chambers a round in his Heckler & Koch*

just strum - I thought it was cheaper to terminate prisoners than to keep them alive?

Justa you're right this thread is a dead horsie already but I thought I'd ask one last question to strum.

 

[Robert]

I think I will soon close this thread. I think enough has been said, so hurry up if you have anything more to say.