Do you agree with this guy?

[Fab4]

Yet, when it comes to guitar amps, us guitarists aren't as adaptive or flexible.

Careful. That's a pretty broad generalization.

1) It's a bigger leap in convenience and practicality for a keyboard player to switch from an acoustic piano or a B3/Leslie setup to a synth than it is for a guitarist to switch from a Twin and a Strat to a modeling amp and a Strat. The keyboard player makes his life MUCH easier by using a synth. The guitar player not so much with a modeling amp, unless he's used to bringing multiple amps to a gig.

2) Guitar players ARE experimenting with and using modeling technology. Along with all the pros others have mentioned who are using modeling amps, Steve Winwood swears by his Fender Cybertwins. And how many of you are using Line 6 modeling PEDALS? I am. I've also tried over the years a Rockman, a Yamaha modeling amp, a POD, a GuitarRig computer-based set up and a Zoom modeling pedalboard...and so far I've been hugely disappointed by all of them. I use the Zoom board on theater gigs when we have to generate zero stage volume, and it works kind of okay...but I feel compromised.

3) The interaction between a guitar and tube amp is much more complex than the interaction between fingers and a keyboard (at least for piano sounds; woodwind and brass sounds are a different story), so it takes a much more complex model to create a realistic tube amp performance. So far, the amp modelers aren't there...but they are getting closer. Give it another few generations and I'll bet you'll see lots of tube die hards (like me) happily using modeling amps and such.

BTW: "Amph?" There's no "h" in the word "amplifier." WTF?
"Teleh?" "Strath?" I don't think so...

 

[Spudman]

BTW: "Amph?" There's no "h" in the word "amplifier." WTF?
"Teleh?" "Strath?" I don't think so...

Better try the forum's search function.

 

[wingsdad]

I used nothing but Fender and Peavey tube amps (with all due respect I can't bring myself to add an 'h' to the word, either) until I retired from active gig work. I'll agree, there's nothing like the magic you can get from your guitar with a great tube amp.

But, for affordability, simple low-maintenance and the ability to experiment conveniently with a variety of sounds and tones, whether a 'noob' or an old-fart-out-to-pasture hobbyist, modeling amp technology, especially as it's improved & developed in the past 10-15 years, is hard to beat.

I've gone thru a variety of digital modeling units and a couple of modeling amps and they all disappointed me one way or another. I guess I was spoiled by my 'tube years'. The best, though, was a Roland Cube 30; I actually missed it after letting go of it a few years ago, so I found one that got left in the dryer overnite and got renamed the MicroCube. Nice to have for all the right (to me) reasons.

But one that's never let me down is a little analog headphone unit I've had since it first came out in '82, my Scholz R&D Rockman (not to be confused in any way by any of the bogus POS Dunlop renditions of it since Scholz sold it to them). Incredibly versatile and realistic as a DI, particularly for recording. And I did use it thru a house PA, without an amp, at a few club gigs 'way back when'. It's that good.

And then there's my Tech21 Trademark 60. The T60 isn't the same 'matrix' modeler that the T21 SansAmp pedals or Trademark 30 and disco'd Trademark 15 employ, using amp and cab sims, that Behringer reverse-engineered about 10 years ago to produce their line of GM amps. The T60's analog modeling is much simpler and straightforward, and so closely emulates tubes it can actually fool a tube freak. Or at least some of those who profess to be.

 

[SuperSwede]

Better try the forum's search function.

Oh man are we going there again

 

[Fab4]

Oh man are we going there again

No, no...I saw the link. "Amph." Ha ha. I get it.

Back away from the inside joke...slowly, quietly...and nobody gets hurt. It's just as afraid of you as you are of it.

Sheeesh. :thwap:

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

Back away from the inside joke...slowly, quietly...and nobody gets hurt. It's just as afraid of you as you are of it.

That's a good plan. Pretty soon you'd be shooting sh!t with your guitar buddies & mention that he's got a sweet amph.

As for the original thread question.

What's to agree or disagree with? The guy wants convenience & great tone. So, OK, that's what he wants.

 

[Monkus]

Some people build houses with hand tools and some build them with power tools. I'll work with whatever I have.

well said !!

 

[mannydingo]

Oh my God, that's me on trial here, ha ha. I was googling WTB(want to buy) ads looking for a buyer for my ToneLab LE. One of the results was a thread on here but I decided to do a general search on ToneLab here. Little did I know I would be quoted. How many times must our words have been topics for other people and we will never, ever know.

Glad to see people being open minded to what I meant. Hey, OldGuy, what's with the signature at the bottom? That's not me. It could have been someone else but when I saw that the person used the same combo amp for keyboard and guitar PLUS the vomit comment, I knew it was me. Ok, I was exaggerating there. I think I was a bit frustrated at the moment. It's not like I really dislike tube amps that much. I just like modellers just fine. Well, really only the ones by Digitech and Vox. The Axe-FX is supposed to be immaculate but at almost $2000 it's prohibitive. I have owned at my home the following:

Boss GT-6
Boss GT-10
Line6 Pod XT Live
Zoom G9.2tt
Vox ToneLab LE
Digitech RP1000

The most digitally bad sounding, to me, was the Boss GT-10 yet it is the most versatile. The ToneLab sound took second place and the Digitech did the best. I've heard the Boss GT-8 sounding pretty good but I've never owned one. I rate them going straight to PA(a mixer to clean power amp to speakers) or a keyboard combo amp in my room. In other words, a completely transparent amp and speaker combination.

Oh, about trying to sound like others. I don't try to sound like everyone else. There's only one sound I would want to emulate and it's that Rockman sound mentioned here already that's on the second Boston album. I also want the sound on the first Boston album but even that old Rockman didn't do that sound exactly and wasn't done with the Rockman on that album. Every other cover song I play, I don't care to sound exactly like the original artist.

For me, the sound has to sound good and not just good tube-wise.

 

[Perfect Stranger]

Solid state....tube.....doesn't matter...I still suck!

 

[duhvoodooman]

Solid state....tube.....doesn't matter...I still suck!

+1! :rotflmao: But I do find that I sound less bad with some equipment than others!

 

[Plank_Spanker]

Modeling amps are getting better by leaps and bounds these days. My Fractal Audio Axe FX has been a godsend for me as far as playing gigs - every sound I need in one box, and it plays and sounds great. It's a great tool for the working musician who needs to command a big pallette of tones / FX. Does it sound / play like a real tube amp? It's very close - close enough to do superlative work live.

The downside to modeling amps is that they require extensive tweaking to dial them in to the player's preference. Some players have the patience to do this, some don't. With most tube amps, you can tweak them in a minute or two and you're ready for the start gate.

Will modeling amps replace tube amps? Not anytime soon. I love my Axe FX, but I also dearly love my Germino. No other amp in the world sounds and plays like it. As long as there are players out there that value the punch, authority and reponsiveness of a tubes, they will be available.

We are witnessing the golden age of amplification. There are amps out there to suit just about any tastes.

 

[sumitomo]

I still Love the sound of my cranked tube amphs,but I'm really warming up to the new stuff that's coming out (I think it's great to have more colors on the pallett)and I really am liking the sounds that I can get and you can tweak things to fit your personal tastes which is a major plus!Sumi

 

[mannydingo]

We are witnessing the golden age of amplification. There are amps out there to suit just about any tastes.

I agree with that statement. It's also why I think it's starts going downhill for tubes from here. It's currently at its peak. Companies have seen the future where someone who can't afford a Triple Rectifier, Marshall Stack, and whatever name you want to choose for the old tube scenario, can buy this $400 modeler and get the same sound in their bedroom through a keyboard combo amp. Even if it's not the same, a 20 year old will feel like it's the same sound because he's never been on stage with the real thing. Eventually, that same generation will stand in front of the real thing and may even think it sounds about the same or even worse than the simulation because it's not what he's used to.

Check out this link. It's safe to open or download because it may ask you:


http://www.tomcrews.com/gt8/compilation.wmv

It's from a group of guitarists more in my age bracket who grew up with tubes and now strictly play Boss GT-8's and the bassist with a Rockman straight to PA. (Both Guitarists). It's only picked up by a video camera and yet notice how it doesn't sound like that loud, obnoxious mushy sound that the audience usually gets? In the tube amp scenario, usually the guitarist is the only one getting that great sound from a tube amp that he loves. I've heard that mush time and time again in all the concerts I've been to in my lifetime. Some are better than others but not most. I recall having to walk out of a Judas Priest concert running away from that loud, overly distorted junk even though I liked the studio version of the songs.

Yeah, in the studio, the very enjoyable tube sound gets processed to the final recording to what doesn't have that tube feel anymore. Oh, I'm 44 and started playing guitar at 15 with some non-playing in between. I'm actively playing currently.

 

[Plank_Spanker]

I agree with that statement. It's also why I think it's starts going downhill for tubes from here. It's currently at its peak. Companies have seen the future where someone who can't afford a Triple Rectifier, Marshall Stack, and whatever name you want to choose for the old tube scenario, can buy this $400 modeler and get the same sound in their bedroom through a keyboard combo amp. Even if it's not the same, a 20 year old will feel like it's the same sound because he's never been on stage with the real thing. Eventually, that same generation will stand in front of the real thing and may even think it sounds about the same or even worse than the simulation because it's not what he's used to.

Check out this link. It's safe to open or download because it may ask you:


http://www.tomcrews.com/gt8/compilation.wmv

It's from a group of guitarists more in my age bracket who grew up with tubes and now strictly play Boss GT-8's and the bassist with a Rockman straight to PA. (Both Guitarists). It's only picked up by a video camera and yet notice how it doesn't sound like that loud, obnoxious mushy sound that the audience usually gets? In the tube amp scenario, usually the guitarist is the only one getting that great sound from a tube amp that he loves. I've heard that mush time and time again in all the concerts I've been to in my lifetime. Some are better than others but not most. I recall having to walk out of a Judas Priest concert running away from that loud, overly distorted junk even though I liked the studio version of the songs.

Yeah, in the studio, the very enjoyable tube sound gets processed to the final recording to what doesn't have that tube feel anymore. Oh, I'm 44 and started playing guitar at 15 with some non-playing in between. I'm actively playing currently.

Good tube amps have always been priced out of most young guns' range, even "back in the day" when I came up scrounging whatever amp I could play. But that never chilled my lust for a proper Marshall amp. When I got a little more established, I bought a few Marshall amps.

Today's young guns have the internet to read what us old dudes post about tube amps. Trust me - they're lusting for them just like I did as a young gun. These players will come up looking for the "good gear" - tubes.

The boutique tube amp market is thriving. It seems like there's a new brand every week.

Modelling technology, while coming around in leaps and bounds, still hasn't nailed the essence of tubes - warmth, punch, touch response, and input reactance.

I hear no death knell sounding for tube amps. They are here to stay.

 

[mannydingo]

I hear no death knell sounding for tube amps. They are here to stay.

It's not a death that I'm talking about. Tubes are here to stay but not in the numbers they are today. It's a decline. Yes, it's going to be painfully slow but in 20 years there will not be that lusting after them. I, myself, said they are currently at their summit and that's why there's no death knell so unding for tube amps. In the future it will be more of a choice of guys that want the modelers and those that want the tubes. Eventually, though, tubes will be in the lower percentage. The reason is that there's no way that 20 years from now there won't be a modeler that sounds exactly, if not better, than a tube amp. You will be able to dial in a tube sound that doesn't even exist in a tube amp. It will be a sound that could have been invented in a better sounding tube amp and requiring tubes but is there in a modeler instead.

Not agreeing with that is repeating the same mistakes of the past like "Man Will Never Soar Like The Eagles". Men would say that because they thought it could only happen if man grew wings. He never thought that you could make the wings unattached to you as in airplane wings. Yeah, you could say something like "tubes are the real wings and modelers are the fake airplane wings so it's not as good" yada yada but that would be only not wanting to lose the debate. Not that I, myself, am debating anyone. I'm just trying to shed some amp and cab simulation light. My Digitech RP1000 and GSP1101 don't need anything but a P.A. The ToneLab takes second place for me. Zoom in third.

 

[Plank_Spanker]

It's not a death that I'm talking about. Tubes are here to stay but not in the numbers they are today. It's a decline. Yes, it's going to be painfully slow but in 20 years there will not be that lusting after them. I, myself, said they are currently at their summit and that's why there's no death knell so unding for tube amps. In the future it will be more of a choice of guys that want the modelers and those that want the tubes. Eventually, though, tubes will be in the lower percentage. The reason is that there's no way that 20 years from now there won't be a modeler that sounds exactly, if not better, than a tube amp. You will be able to dial in a tube sound that doesn't even exist in a tube amp. It will be a sound that could have been invented in a better sounding tube amp and requiring tubes but is there in a modeler instead.

Not agreeing with that is repeating the same mistakes of the past like "Man Will Never Soar Like The Eagles". Men would say that because they thought it could only happen if man grew wings. He never thought that you could make the wings unattached to you as in airplane wings. Yeah, you could say something like "tubes are the real wings and modelers are the fake airplane wings so it's not as good" yada yada but that would be only not wanting to lose the debate. Not that I, myself, am debating anyone. I'm just trying to shed some amp and cab simulation light. My Digitech RP1000 and GSP1101 don't need anything but a P.A. The ToneLab takes second place for me. Zoom in third.

As for modellers, you're preaching to the chior to me - I use a Fractal Audio Axe FX processor in my gig rig. Right now, I think the Axe FX is still the pinnacle of modeling, and I'm beyond happy with it..............................but I still love my tube amp.

 

[markb]

I was about to post something about the Roland Cubes being the kind of modeler I can understand etc, but I seem to have already done it in the first flush of this thread. Here's a link...

http://www.thefret.net/showpost.php?p=129840&postcount=3

 

[Tig]

Can anyone name a major artist, someone with a signature sound, that uses a modeling amp live?

Best I can come up with is Steve Winwood using the Fender Cyber-Twin SE. Oh, it has a tube pre-amp.
He says he really likes it and I noticed he used it on the recent Winwood-Clapton tour.

 

[Tig]

Until recently nobody even thought they needed 10 different amphs and 25 pedals at each gig. So why does that have to change now? I feel like there is too much focus on versatility and mimicry and not enough emphasis on personality. Seems like players did fine before with less.

I gotta' agree. While I'd love to pull off Warren Haynes' tones, I'd rather have my own personal touch, no matter what the tone or phrasing.

I can see a cover band wanting to get close to the original sound of the many genres and bands, but I think most listeners like someone's personal interpretation over an exact copy.

It is hard to compare a $400 modeling amp with the incredible quality of say, a Fractal Axe FX combined with their Reactor FR amp (their tube amp designed for digital guitar systems), for instance.
That is the future of modeling technology, but it's here today.

 

[NWBasser]

It's not a death that I'm talking about. Tubes are here to stay but not in the numbers they are today. It's a decline. Yes, it's going to be painfully slow but in 20 years there will not be that lusting after them. I, myself, said they are currently at their summit and that's why there's no death knell so unding for tube amps. In the future it will be more of a choice of guys that want the modelers and those that want the tubes. Eventually, though, tubes will be in the lower percentage. The reason is that there's no way that 20 years from now there won't be a modeler that sounds exactly, if not better, than a tube amp. You will be able to dial in a tube sound that doesn't even exist in a tube amp. It will be a sound that could have been invented in a better sounding tube amp and requiring tubes but is there in a modeler instead.

Not agreeing with that is repeating the same mistakes of the past like "Man Will Never Soar Like The Eagles". Men would say that because they thought it could only happen if man grew wings. He never thought that you could make the wings unattached to you as in airplane wings. Yeah, you could say something like "tubes are the real wings and modelers are the fake airplane wings so it's not as good" yada yada but that would be only not wanting to lose the debate. Not that I, myself, am debating anyone. I'm just trying to shed some amp and cab simulation light. My Digitech RP1000 and GSP1101 don't need anything but a P.A. The ToneLab takes second place for me. Zoom in third.

And then what of speakers/cabs?

IMO, speakers and cabs have a significant effect on tone. How effectively can those characteristics be modeled and transmitted to an audience?

I'll admit a fair degree of ignorance here and while I know PA gear works quite well for bass, guitar reproduction is another matter entirely.

 

[Eric]

Since this thread is alive and kicking again...

I agree in principle with the author of that quote. It seems silly to me to carry around your mode of amplification (i.e. what makes the sound louder) to places with very advanced sound systems and high-quality amplifiers (i.e. things that make the sound louder), just so that you can get the tone you want.

Is tone important? Heck yes! Are tube amps great? Now that I own one, I can say an emphatic 'yes.' Does it mean that carrying around a tube amp (which is designed to...make the sound louder) will forever be the best option? I hope not.

I don't need a million different models from an emulator -- I just need one that I like. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the one tone has to come from an amp using old technology. If I could get it from my dumpy RP100a, I would take it.

My vision for what I perform with is ultimately this: guitar -> ME-50 or similar for effects -> some kind of amp model/emu -> split to direct-to-house and powered stage monitor. I feel like the thing that makes your sound louder should be only that: transparent amplification. We should be able to do all of the tone stuff before that point, no matter how particular we are.

I hope that one day, we'll get there.

 

[oldguy]

Oh my God, that's me on trial here, ha ha. I was googling WTB(want to buy) ads looking for a buyer for my ToneLab LE. One of the results was a thread on here but I decided to do a general search on ToneLab here. Little did I know I would be quoted. How many times must our words have been topics for other people and we will never, ever know.

Glad to see people being open minded to what I meant. Hey, OldGuy, what's with the signature at the bottom? That's not me. It could have been someone else but when I saw that the person used the same combo amp for keyboard and guitar PLUS the vomit comment, I knew it was me. Ok, I was exaggerating there. I think I was a bit frustrated at the moment. It's not like I really dislike tube amps that much. I just like modellers just fine. Well, really only the ones by Digitech and Vox. The Axe-FX is supposed to be immaculate but at almost $2000 it's prohibitive. I have owned at my home the following:

Boss GT-6
Boss GT-10
Line6 Pod XT Live
Zoom G9.2tt
Vox ToneLab LE
Digitech RP1000

The most digitally bad sounding, to me, was the Boss GT-10 yet it is the most versatile. The ToneLab sound took second place and the Digitech did the best. I've heard the Boss GT-8 sounding pretty good but I've never owned one. I rate them going straight to PA(a mixer to clean power amp to speakers) or a keyboard combo amp in my room. In other words, a completely transparent amp and speaker combination.

Oh, about trying to sound like others. I don't try to sound like everyone else. There's only one sound I would want to emulate and it's that Rockman sound mentioned here already that's on the second Boston album. I also want the sound on the first Boston album but even that old Rockman didn't do that sound exactly and wasn't done with the Rockman on that album. Every other cover song I play, I don't care to sound exactly like the original artist.

For me, the sound has to sound good and not just good tube-wise.

Not sure about which signature you refer to, Manny, but I simply copied and pasted the piece. I did so to generate a little conversation here, and you most certainly are not on trial. Having owned both tube amphs and modellers, I think they both have merits that can only be judged on an individual basis.
Glad this thread got kickstarted again, and interested to see where it leads.:AOK

 

[mrmudcat]

wll i did not read otheres posts ..............but tubes for me period .......nuff said...................not open for debate and this id my final post here...........................

 

[spaivxx]

I found this thread (and entire forum) by accident reading about modellers. I have used tube amps most of my life, older Mesa' like the Mark III, Mark IV, Triaxis, Studio Pre, etc... as well as other brands such as ADA, Marshall, Rivera, Fender, Peavey, etc...

I love them. Aways will. But after I took many years off from playing, a friend of mine introduced me to the Pod XT, and that device was largely responsible for getting me back into it.

Today I do not use Line 6 gear. i have owned and gigged with the TLSE, Vetta, Pods (all variants up to the X3) GT-8&10, etc... Modellers are great for me for a lot of reasons, convenience being the theme.

One of the bands I play in practices in a small room with electronic drums and either in ear monitors or a set of studio monitors. My modeller makes this possible. I have gigged with modellers both direct to the board and as part of amp/rack setups, and have gotten what I think are some great sounds.

The link below is from a gig a couple of weeks ago, it is a modeller through a power amp and cab. At 2:25 you can hear an approx 10 second bend. I get all the sustain I need from this setup. Morphing feedback, touch response, etc...

BTW, we dont actually know this song, someone tipped us $10 and requested some blues so my bass player looked at me and said "Uh play Red House". His name is Tommy so I call this "Red Tommy's House", he is also the one "singing".

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8214726

 

[@nthony]

Just to go slightly off topic...

Has anyone seen the EH 22 watt Power Amp 'pedal' by the way?

A great concept. Never the need to carry a back up amp ever again, just plug this baby into a speaker cabinet and go.

Will it spell the end of tube amplifiaction? No.

Is it a useful and interesting and cheap (RRP c.£79 ) tool? Hell Yes!

And now back on topic. This is the same way I look at modelling amps etc. Useful tools to have in certain settings but will they spell the end for tube amplification? For me no. Definatley not. The mod amps are fun and can help you get out of a rut with certain tones, but I'll always return my 'old' faithful for that reliability and that guarentee of 'pure' tone and the 'real thing'.

 

[Kazz]

wll i did not trad otheres posts ..............but tunes for me period .......nuff said...................mot open for denate and this id my final post here...........................

Muddy......are you heavily congested here or what :happy

 

[deeaa]

I think, soundwise, modelers are already there.

You can get a POD XT and record on your computer some guitar sounds that sound so good that you'd need a high-end studio mics, recording room and some of the finest tube amps out there to record such a sound, with such clarity etc.

So when it comes to ease of getting the sounds, modelers are already winning and soon will win I'm sure.


BUT and it's a BIG but.

You can't feel a modeler thru a screaming 4x12" stack and hear the crackles and feel the wind flap your pants. And you can't push thru a mix with a smoothed-out modeled sound no matter how it sounds inline or recording.

AND the most important thing to me - when you create an insanely good sound on your pod or whatever, sure it IS good...but you play something a little different, and you have to build another sound for that part. And another for the next part.

So if you use a modeler, you end up using and actually NEEDING 38 different sounds each for a particular use.

But with a simple, responsive tube rig, you only need like 2-3 sounds and they are great for any song with small changes in how you hit the strings etc.

That is my main worry about modelers...they are killing the art of varying you picking angle, power, speed, direction and pick material choices...because with modelers you can sound pretty much the same just strumming the chords than with playing them with your full-right-hand skills. They are, and always will be, too swamped with compression, squeezing and whatnot.

 

[Eric]

So if you use a modeler, you end up using and actually NEEDING 38 different sounds each for a particular use.

But with a simple, responsive tube rig, you only need like 2-3 sounds and they are great for any song with small changes in how you hit the strings etc.

That is my main worry about modelers...they are killing the art of varying you picking angle, power, speed, direction and pick material choices...because with modelers you can sound pretty much the same just strumming the chords than with playing them with your full-right-hand skills. They are, and always will be, too swamped with compression, squeezing and whatnot.

I agree with you somewhat on this, but don't you think it will eventually be resolved? Sure, it's tough to simulate all of the dynamics of a tube amp, but to me, that's where the main work remains for the modeling manufacturers.

I'm guessing that they know that it's a shortcoming of the technology currently, so difficult as it may be, I think that will eventually be addressed.

 

[mrmudcat]

Muddy......are you heavily congested here or what :happy

yea most likely the meds!!!:french


Edited:

 

[deeaa]

I agree with you somewhat on this, but don't you think it will eventually be resolved? Sure, it's tough to simulate all of the dynamics of a tube amp, but to me, that's where the main work remains for the modeling manufacturers.

I'm guessing that they know that it's a shortcoming of the technology currently, so difficult as it may be, I think that will eventually be addressed.

Yes, I hope and believe so. But it might not be what they ultimately want to do. They may want to provide the best possible sound, not necessarily replicate all the difficulties and such of real amps, as more and more people may not want that, they may simply want the easy-to play versions they've grown accustomed to, and majority rules.

Maybe there will always be some purists. Not just with modelers.

I remember, back in 1989 I played a JCM800 halfstack with a Boss OD with a lot of drive and I thought I played really well. Then I played a buddy's old JMP and it suddenly revelaled all my playing/picking etc. errors mercilessly. I could not get nice clean chord changes or nice neat chords...