Double Necks - Any advice?

[Fab4]

I'm jonesing for a 6/12 double neck. I'm leery of the cheap Korean models, but I don't want to spring for a $5000 Ernie Ball. I've priced all the components from Warmoth ($1500ish without pickups), so building one may be a possibility.

Anybody have experience with a double neck of any stripe? Any advice on what to watch out for (besides back pain)? Pickup combination suggestions? Control configuration and location ergonomics? Inquiring minds want to know...

 

[oldguy]

I remember a Fender type based on (I believe) a Tele style. Never played one.

 

[oldguy]

I did some snooping, it seems there are quite a few double necks out there, unless of course you're set on building one yourself. I'll pass the links along here if you're interested. Gibson and Epi are easier to find, and there was a Peavey (think Jeff Cook/Alabama sig model) on fleabay if you wanna have a look. As a side note, none of these will cost 5 grand (like the E.Ball you mention). Also listed is a '79 Ibanez Musician.
I notice the Epi's vary from under a grand to around $1500 depending on where you look. Add a grand to the higher figure and you're into Gibson territory. Personally, for that much money, I would want to put my hands on the guitar and check the quality. If you build your own from Warmoth parts, of course, you can check the quality as you build, reject parts that don't meet your standards, and own your own personalized axe when you're done.
I have no way of knowing the quality of any of these......... I merely listed them so you can check some options. Many people would not buy Ebay items, others won't buy from the mega-mart music stores, and you may not care for the brands here.........in any case..........
I hope this helps.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--EPIEGDC

http://www.music123.com/Epiphone-Li...stom-Electric-Guitar-519395-i1166449.Music123

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/...ition-G1275-Custom-Electric-Guitar?sku=519395

http://cgi.ebay.com/1980s-Hydra-Double-Neck-Peavey_W0QQitemZ120372905903QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-EDS-1275...5|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-Custom-E...5|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ibanez-ST1300-D...5|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

 

[Gil Janus]

There are also some cheaper ones - $499.99 to $550.00 at rondomusic.com

Agile TC-630 Double White (6/12-string Tele like)

Agile TC-630 Double Checker (6/12-string Tele like)

They even have a $545.95 Lefty

Agile Valkyrie Double Neck White Left Handed (6/12-string Agile SG like)

I have no idea how good they are, but folks do like the other Agile guitars they have gotten via rondo.

Gil

 

[oldguy]

I like the Agile LP copy I bought off fleabay.
I didn't include Agiles, however, and was even leery of including the Epiphone because of Fab4's remark "leery of the cheap Korean models" in his post.
Having owned only one Agile, and no Epiphones, I included Epi's only, as they are the more expensive, generally acknowledged, popular brand.

 

[Fab4]

Thanks for the links. The Epi/Gibson SG-type designs are out of the running for me due to upper fret access issues, but I like the idea of a Tele-style double neck.

I was able to try three double necks at a local guitar store today - a Dean Hardtail and two Earnie Ball Sillhouettes, a white one with a rosewood fingerboard like Steuart Smith plays on the Eagles Farewell I DVD and a black one with a maple fingerboard.

The Dean lived down to my expectations. It felt nice enough, but the pickups were dull and uninspiring. My fear with the low-priced models is that you'll get two crappy guitars stuck together. I've been pleasantly surprised by "cheap" guitars in the past, but this wasn't one of those times...and at $800-900 used, the Dean isn't exactly cheap.

The Earnie Ball guitars were a different story. Everything felt and sounded first class. They can be had for $3500 out the door...about what you might expect for two really, really GOOD guitars stuck together. I thought the maple neck version felt and sounded a little better. The maple 12-string neck was definitely easier to play, but that might have been a set up issue. A little trussrod tweak might bring the rosewood neck right up to par.

One thing I was interested to try was the neck placement. The Dean had the 12-string neck on top, but the EBs had it on the bottom. Steuart Smith wears his guitars really high, so he asked for the six neck on top where it would be more comfortable for him.

I kinda like that idea in theory, but in practice the low-side 12 put my fretting hand at an awkward angle for grabbing 12-string chords. Even something as simple as the lead line from "A Hard Day's Night" felt harder than it should be. It'd probably be something I could adjust to, but on a 12-string I need all the help I can get. It may be a deal breaker; ya don't want to drop $35 C-notes on a guitar ya don't love.

The Warmoth DIY option may be the way to go. I'd be more excited about it if Warmoth's 12-string neck didn't have such a dorky headstock shape...and if they had 6-string and 12-string necks that complimented each other.

What all that in mind, this eBay listing is intriguing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=170303221409

But $750 for an unknown quantity with no return policy is JUST that much beyond what I'm willing to do. The search goes on...

 

[Disraeli]

Danelectro Makes a double neck 6/12. I have never played one, but for 600 its not to pricey. Although I have played my friends single neck Dan and really liked it, hope that helps.

 

[Fab4]

So here's what I ended up with:



A Korean-made Dean Hardtail, one of a run of 200 produced a couple of years ago. I paid a little over $900 for it, which is actually what places like Sam Ash sold them for new. This one was used but virtually unplayed. It still has the protective plastic over the pickups and control plates.

I dithered over two Ernie Balls for a long time, but ultimately I decided that I had to have the 12-string neck on top. Having it underneath, like on the EBs, just put my hand in too awkward a position. Since this was the only other double neck in town, I took it home.

Some eBay stores have a blue Galveston that's made in the same factory and is essentially the same guitar, although it has 24 frets and a bit different body. It can be had in the $700 range, so it would have been my next choice. There's a lot to be said, though, for buying what you can play firsthand, and for shopping locally. If you have acces to great guitar stores like the independent ones in Denver, I think you should support them.

So there it is. The 12-neck needs some intonation work (I'll have to flip the G-string saddle around), but otherwise the setup is first rate. The pickups could really stand an upgrade; they're pretty dark and compressed, but I knew that going in. It seems to be a Dean thing. I have a set of Gibson Classic '57s and a set of Burstbuckers laying around, so those may go in someday.

Now...what songs should I learn? Hotel California, check...I Call Your Name...Suite Madam Blue...More Than A Feeling...No, not Stairway to Heaven, puhleeze... Any other suggestions?

 

[wingsdad]

...Now...what songs should I learn? Hotel California, check...I Call Your Name...Suite Madam Blue...More Than A Feeling...No, not Stairway to Heaven, puhleeze... Any other suggestions?

Congrats, fab4 :beer:

Tom Petty: 'The Waiting', 'Refugee', and then go thru his catalog from there.

Many, many Beatles tunes from 64-66; i.e., their cover of Buddy Holly's 'Words Of Love'; 'Every Little Thing'.

Then, staying in the Oldies Vault, since McGuinn was inspired by Harrison to get a Ric 12, all the Byrds classics.

A few months ago, I saw a Galveston copy of the Ibanez (w/o looking again, was it?) in that e-bay listing. Korean. Any one of those could be a Cort factory product, and that's a good thing. Decent. Looks like the Dean you scored is a good one.

 

[Fab4]

The Beatles catalog is a given. Has anyone EVER picked up an electric 12 and NOT played the opening chord from A Hard Day's Night?

 

[wingsdad]

The Beatles catalog is a given.

:thwap: with that handle of yours, I kinda figgered that.

Has anyone EVER picked up an electric 12 and NOT played the opening chord from A Hard Day's Night?

There's been quite a bit of erudite, if not masturbatory, scholarly debate over how that chord was executed. IMHO, or it may even be legend (or maybe I even I just made it one), that it was the result of one being dropped -- as in Ringo accidentally knocking over George's Ric.
wd searches to no avail for tongue-in-cheek smiley face

 

[markb]

:thwap: with that handle of yours, I kinda figgered that.

There's been quite a bit of erudite, if not masturbatory, scholarly debate over how that chord was executed. IMHO, or it may even be legend (or maybe I even I just made it one), that it was the result of one being dropped -- as in Ringo accidentally knocking over George's Ric.
wd searches to no avail for tongue-in-cheek smiley face

That's what it sounds like to me too. I've always thought of that chord as "the sound of a Ric falling over while plugged into an AC30TB". Maybe I should set myself up as a "Beatles Scholar (TM)"

 

[Fab4]

That's what it sounds like to me too. I've always thought of that chord as "the sound of a Ric falling over while plugged into an AC30TB". Maybe I should set myself up as a "Beatles Scholar (TM)"

Poor ol' Ringo...always knocking into things and causing a ruckus. Well, he'd have to have dropped a Ric, a Gibson and a Hofner. George was familiar with sus4 chords, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to have him play one, then have John do a G or G2 at a higher inversion and Paul play a high D and maybe a G on bass. That's 20 strings working together; no wonder people can't figure it out exactly.

I'd be more interested in how George played the solo, since he couldn't recreate it at a BBC session (they had to cut in the studio version of the solo section). My guess is that he played it in E to a slowed down tape, which makes the hammer-on thing slower AND easier to play because you can use open strings. Anyone up for a Masturbatory™ Scholarly Debate® on that?

 

[wingsdad]

...
I'd be more interested in how George played the solo, since he couldn't recreate it at a BBC session (they had to cut in the studio version of the solo section). My guess is that he played it in E to a slowed down tape...

That's spot-on...:AOK: ...

...and part of the secret...If you listen carefully to the solo, you'll hear the rest of it...George Martin on an intentionally out-of-tune upright piano doubling Harrison's playing...done without overdubs on one track (since they recorded to 4-track tape)...a technique they'd used before ('63) on a Lennon-McCarntey Tune, 'Misery'. Geoff Emerick describes the Hard Days Night sessions and the rest of his Beatles session recording, engineering and mixing/mastering work with EMI and George Martin his autobiography Here, There and Everywhere.

Throughout, Emerick is not kind to Harrison (calling him 'particularly ham-fisted' during the HDN sessions and the title track in particular). On the other hand, he fawns over and praises McCartney, since Paul recruited him to record Wings. He's hot & cold with Lennon, and obviously no fan of Yoko's.

BTW: he only describes the opening chord to HDN as George & John hitting a 'ringing chord' together. Nothing technical there. Not looking to debate, but my guess is it was 2 Rick's, as Lennon's electric of choice at the time was his beat up Rick 325. He got into the Epi Casino and Strat with Revolver.

 

[Fab4]

my guess is it was 2 Rick's.

Ah, but didn't Lennon play acoustic on that track? (I thought so, but I'll have to listen again.) If he did, that'd make it his Gibson J160E, although they may have edited the chord onto the beginning.

I read Emerick's book and thought it had some nice insights, although he seems kind of bitter that he didn't get more credit (and maybe rightly so.) He did warm up to George's playing when he came back for the Abbey Road sessions...and was especially impressed when George played his solo on Something straight through with the orchestra.

I sometimes wonder what The Beatles would have been like if they'd had a Clapton/Beck-type guitar god. Still, they seemed to do all right with the guys they had in the band...

 

[wingsdad]

Ah, but didn't Lennon play acoustic on that track? (I thought so, but I'll have to listen again.) If he did, that'd make it his Gibson J160E, although they may have edited the chord onto the beginning.

Yes. But he added it on an overdub while Lennon & Mac double-tracked their vocals and Ringo added the bongos and cowbell...simultaneously, again recorded on 1 track. Again, this is according to Emerick (p. 84), and it was before the solo was attacked.

I read Emerick's book and thought it had some nice insights, although he seems kind of bitter that he didn't get more credit (and maybe rightly so.)

Indeed, bitter he was about much, but such was the life of a studio underling working for George Martin, or moreso, EMI.

He did warm up to George's playing when he came back for the Abbey Road sessions...and was especially impressed when George played his solo on Something straight through with the orchestra.

Uh, huh...one of the few times he didn't put Harrison down. And now that you had me pulling this book of the shelf, another time he praised his work was for the Rick arpeggio figure that graces HDN's fadeout ending...again, done to slowed-down tape.(p.84, again).

Back to that solo a sec...the characteristic Rick 12 'jingle-jangle' sound caused by the unconventional way it's strung, octave pairs opposite a 'conventional' 12's setting, are part of the magic. (You really hear this effect with Harrison's work on their cover of I Call Your Name, and such originals as What You're Doing).

If you want to get that sound from your Dean's 12-neck, you may have to re-string it Rick-style (might need to cut a new nut) or learn to play with upstrokes vs. down...

I sometimes wonder what The Beatles would have been like if they'd had a Clapton/Beck-type guitar god.

They did...at least for one notable 'White Album' track, with Clapton doing the solo for While My Guitar Gently Weeps. It's likelyhe played on more tracks along the way, given his friendship with George. [whether he gave George the Les Paul that once belonged to Rick Derringer as a token of appreciation for letting him cuckold him and steal 'Layla'...er...Patti Boyd.

Still, they seemed to do all right with the guys they had in the band...

Yeah, not too bad. Not bad at all.

 

[Fab4]

They used Clapton on While My Guitar Gently Weeps, and Billy Preston on the Let It Be and Abbey Road sessions as guest artists to good effect (musically and as a "social emollient" in George Martin's words). But that's not the same thing as having a bona fide guitar hero IN the band.

I wonder what kind of tensions and opportunities that would have added. Would there have been a Beatles instrumental collection? A heavier blues influence? A (God forbid) "Jazz Odyssey" album? It's an interesting line of speculation...but ultimately, George IS a guitar hero for me because he made great music that served each song, made the most of his skills within his limitations and always strove to grow as a guitarist, songwriter and musician.

Back to the subject of this thread, though, there are lots of Beatles 12-string songs but only one I can think of the might require a double neck: You Can't Do That. As George chimes away on the Ric 12, John takes a way-cool solo on his 6 string. THERE's a double neck opportunity.

As a fellow Beatlefile, can you think of any others from the Beatles catalog ...or anywhere else?

 

[wingsdad]

...Back to the subject of this thread, though, there are lots of Beatles 12-string songs but only one I can think of the might require a double neck: You Can't Do That. As George chimes away on the Ric 12, John takes a way-cool solo on his 6 string. THERE's a double neck opportunity.

As a fellow Beatlefile, can you think of any others from the Beatles catalog ...or anywhere else?

I've never read anywhere that the Rick 12 was used on Ticket To Ride for the signature riff/intro, but it's certainly the way I heard it & what I used for it in cover bands. The little solo riff at the end of the 'middle 8' is a 6, probably a Casino or a Gretsch. I didn't have a double-neck, so the other GP would cover that. So there ya go...that's one...

 

[Fab4]

I've never read anywhere that the Rick 12 was used on Ticket To Ride for the signature riff/intro

Ah,excellent call! I think I remember seeing them play it with George using the Ric 12...at the Shea Stadium concert, maybe? Wherever it was, he struggled with the solo at the end. Paul's leads are a bit quirky (in a good way) and the bends would be just about impossible on the 12.

Doesn't Can't Buy Me Love have a 12-string part at a 6-string lead, too? I've seen him play that one on the 12, as well. The simpler solo probably lends itself better to the double courses.

 

[wingsdad]

..Doesn't Can't Buy Me Love have a 12-string part at a 6-string lead, too? I've seen him play that one on the 12, as well. The simpler solo probably lends itself better to the double courses.

That would be a good double-neck tune :AOK: yeah, the litlle 'chord rake' fills in the chorus and the outro are the Ricky. The solo is pure Gretsch w/a bigsby, double-tracked. I'd play it live with a slow, heavy delay/echo, set to tempo.

But, on the other hand...man that great big J160E rhythm of Lennon's ... strung with electric strings and the little P90 on that thing...oh, baby....

Paul...quirky leads... who knew?

As long as you might pull more from that movie, here's another for your double-neck: You Can't Do That. Intro hook/signature lick thorughout/outro: 12; switch to your 6 just for the solo (the Rick 12 is underneath it in the mix so can be left out live if need be).