Environmentally-friendly, sustainable guitar gear: green guitaring?

[Eric]

From what I know of guitars, it seems like people tend to obsess over some components simply because they're rare. Gibson has been accused of using some illegal rosewood (Brazilian?) a couple of times IIRC. I've heard that koa is in pretty short supply, and that it might not be used in guitars all that frequently in the future. I thought I heard about tube manufacturing being restricted at some point too. I'm not sure if that one is actually true though.

Anyway, this makes me wonder what is sustainable when it comes to guitars. Instead of just chasing down the most rare and precious components to give to ourselves, what sort of rig would you construct if you wanted to be as environmentally friendly as possible? I have no right answer here; it's as much for me to learn as it is for me to voice my opinion. For all I know, solid-state amp manufacturing is less green than tube amp manufacturing.

The first thing that comes to mind for me is a tele. They're so dead simple, it seems like you could get a lot of guitars cranked out with limited resources. After that, I'm out of ideas. Martin makes those HPL guitars in anticipation of less solid wood availability, don't they? Are there any other alternative technologies out there that go in that direction? Wasn't Jet City fooling around with drop-in replacements for tubes?

Any thoughts? I just thought it might be worth a little discussion and exploration.

 

[Katastrophe]

The most sustainable type of guitar is one made from completely synthetic materials, IMO. They just haven't caught on, yet... I'd like to see the phenolic Reverend guitars come back, but that ain't gonna happen any time soon.

One of the most interesting ideas was the Lamboo Telecaster, one that they made for the 60th Telebration using bamboo laminate. I think it's a great idea, as bamboo grows fast and is sustainable as a building material. Reports that I've read about the guitar are favorable.

As far as amph construction, I'm largely ignorant, and don't feel like I can contribute much. I do wonder, though, if fiberglass, carbon fiber or some other material can be used for head and cab construction and stil sound good.

 

[Photomike666]

Everything would be more sustainable if things were built to last. The problem to today's disposable society.

 

[Ch0jin]

^^ what he said.

Although I'd be surprised if the music industry is anything more than fractionally responsible for "wood" depletion. I mean don't they rip down thousands of acres of rain forest every year just so they can run cattle to supply McDonalds and stuff?

 

[Eric]

I understand the points you are making, but in my mind finger pointing doesn't release me from responsible behavior.

 

[syo]

Interesting post Eric. I think from the buyer's perspective it has been difficult to buy responsibly due to a lack of clear information. This is beginning to change with initiatives like the FSC (Forestry Stewardship Council) certification which is granted to producers who adhere to their strict guidelines. I think the more people consider this issue (as you have here), the more manufacturers will act responsibly for the sake of sales. Actually though, the larger manufacturers already have plenty of incentive to develop sustainable materials because they can all see just how little is left.

You might find this an interesting read:

http://www.gizmag.com/eco-friendly-guitars/11918/

 

[kiteman]

What about the furniture makers? Don't they use large quantities of prime wood?

 

[Eric]

You might find this an interesting read:

http://www.gizmag.com/eco-friendly-guitars/11918/

Thanks for the link -- that was interesting. I'd like to know the relative impact of tube versus solid state versus modeling. I think that would be an interesting examination, particularly if you include turnover/upgrades/lifespan.

 

[markb]

The trouble with synthetics like phenolic resin, HPL, carbon fibre, etc is that oil is far from a sustainable resource. Wood isn't really that bad as long as forests are managed responsibly. House building (at least in the US and NZ) consumed far more wood than musical instrument manufacture. Much of it irreplacable. Paper and card based composites could be a possibility if you can get enough density. Metal parts can largely be made from recycled scrap. So we're not that badly off. Until you get to valve manufacture that is :thwap Mind you, semiconductors aren't that green either.

 

[Eric]

So we're not that badly off. Until you get to valve manufacture that is :thwap.

Could you expand on that a bit?

 

[tunghaichuan]

Could you expand on that a bit?

Valves (or vacuum tubes as we call them here in the USA) are full of nasty chemicals that are harsh to the environment and hard to recycle. There are only one or two very specialized tube factories left in the US, and they put out a fraction of what factories produced back in the 50s and 60s. I believe one produces transmitting triodes for radio stations and the other makes tubes for audiophiles. Most guitar amp tubes are made in countries with relaxed, or non-existent environmental regulations, i.e., Mainland China and Russia.

OTOH, guitar amps when built to be serviced can last decades. There are still amps from the 40s still in operation. The tubes are the weak link.

To reply to the topic at hand, back in the 90s I had one of those Ibanez Talman guitars made of "resoncast" which was basically sawdust bound with resin binder. It had a wood neck but the body was all composite. It sounded great, and wasn't any heavier than a all-wood guitar despite resoncast being a close relative of particleboard/MDF. Nobody bought them, and they soon started offering an all-wood version. I remember playing one of the all wood ones and it was very bright and piercing, nothing like my guitar. Ibanez soon stopped making them altogether.

 

[Glacies]

Cool thread.

I'm not opposed to new guitar materials in the least because I have no real emotional tie holding me to any particular type of guitar or amp. I have always love the LP which is why I have one, if it was a type of recycled plastic I wouldn't mind in the least.

And I'm more than slightly interested in some of those composite acoustics I've seen but the pricetag is freakin insane.

The tele I'm building right now is a particle board. I think that's more environmentally friendly than solids as it's basically glued scraps. That might be another area to explore.

 

[Eric]

Valves (or vacuum tubes as we call them here in the USA) are full of nasty chemicals that are harsh to the environment and hard to recycle. There are only one or two very specialized tube factories left in the US, and they put out a fraction of what factories produced back in the 50s and 60s. I believe one produces transmitting triodes for radio stations and the other makes tubes for audiophiles. Most guitar amp tubes are made in countries with relaxed, or non-existent environmental regulations, i.e., Mainland China and Russia.

OTOH, guitar amps when built to be serviced can last decades. There are still amps from the 40s still in operation. The tubes are the weak link.

To reply to the topic at hand, back in the 90s I had one of those Ibanez Talman guitars made of "resoncast" which was basically sawdust bound with resin binder. It had a wood neck but the body was all composite. It sounded great, and wasn't any heavier than a all-wood guitar despite resoncast being a close relative of particleboard/MDF. Nobody bought them, and they soon started offering an all-wood version. I remember playing one of the all wood ones and it was very bright and piercing, nothing like my guitar. Ibanez soon stopped making them altogether.

Much appreciated, tung. You win the information all-star award for today.

 

[tunghaichuan]

Much appreciated, tung. You win the information all-star award for today.

I am a fountain of trivia; just about everything I know is trivial. :rollover

 

[NWBasser]

The trouble with synthetics like phenolic resin, HPL, carbon fibre, etc is that oil is far from a sustainable resource. Wood isn't really that bad as long as forests are managed responsibly. House building (at least in the US and NZ) consumed far more wood than musical instrument manufacture. Much of it irreplacable. Paper and card based composites could be a possibility if you can get enough density. Metal parts can largely be made from recycled scrap. So we're not that badly off. Until you get to valve manufacture that is :thwap Mind you, semiconductors aren't that green either.

Ah Mark, I was all fired up to say something and then you beat me to the punch on the unsustainability of synthetic (generally petroleum-based) materials.

I recall a case history of a semiconductor manufacturer in San Jose that thoroughly contaminated a groundwater aquifer with chlorinated solvents.

Another aspect of this is how much energy and from what sources were used in the manufacturing. Chinese products are from plants that typically use coal-fired power for their electricity. Not to mention the petroleum used to ship the stuff across the Pacific.

 

[Tig]

Fano will be revealing three "AlumAcrylic" guitar bodies at NAMM. They have a chambered acrylic core fused to an anodized aluminum skin.
I saw the advertisment in PG here.

I hope they don't cost the usual high prices. I'm not so hip on the exposed screws around the edges, either.

 

[bcdon]

I must confess, I'm not too much into the 'sustainable' aspects of guitar... what with my LP made from Agarwood, to the custom humbuckers made from rare earth magnets. Top that with my custom strap made from baby seal and strings from the spotted owl, I'm an environmental protest just waiting to happen!

 

[Ch0jin]

Link to buy owl strings and baby seal straps please!

 

[deeaa]

Hm, nice idea for a thread. I just think all I can really do for sustainability is buy local stuff whenever I can.

Sadly pretty much all electronic etc. stuff is made in China so that is precious little I can for for it...plus, I haven't the money to buy just locally made guitars, although roughly half of them actually are.

 

[markb]

Hm, nice idea for a thread. I just think all I can really do for sustainability is buy local stuff whenever I can.

Sadly pretty much all electronic etc. stuff is made in China so that is precious little I can for for it...plus, I haven't the money to buy just locally made guitars, although roughly half of them actually are.

I had a Finnish Landola acoustic in the 70s.

 

[FrankenFretter]

In my area, there's Normandy Guitars that produce aluminum-bodied basses and guitars. They're not any lighter than wood, let me tell you from firsthand experience, but they are made from a material that can be reused/recycled (although you can't just turn in heat-treated aluminum to the recycling depot).

I think that a lot of people have a hard time accepting alternative materials, due to the dogma surrounding "good tonewoods". I can't honestly say that I'm above that, although I'd like to think that if I liked the sound of a guitar and the way it played, the materials wouldn't matter (unless it's made from veal...yuck!). I like the bamboo idea, that's pretty cool. I'd like to play a bamboo guitar, just to see what it's like.

Good topic for a thread, Eric. Always thinking, you are. [I said that in my Yoda voice]

 

[bcdon]

Link to buy owl strings and baby seal straps please!

:rollover

 

[Tig]

I like the bamboo idea, that's pretty cool. I'd like to play a bamboo guitar, just to see what it's like.

Bamboo is pretty cool. I took this photo of a Calfee bamboo bike prototype (plus carbon fiber lug joints) 5 years ago at the first independent bike builder's expo. They now produce these, but you don't want to know how much they cost. The joints are now made of hemp (not a typo!). http://www.calfeedesign.com/products/bamboo/

The new versions:

 

[Eric]

I think that a lot of people have a hard time accepting alternative materials, due to the dogma surrounding "good tonewoods". I can't honestly say that I'm above that, although I'd like to think that if I liked the sound of a guitar and the way it played, the materials wouldn't matter (unless it's made from veal...yuck!).

I agree. Guitars are that unfortunate middle ground between complexity, simplicity, subjectivity, and expense (among other things). They're simple enough that people like to analyze them and figure out ways to make them 'better,' but due to the subjectivity of something like tone and all of the variables in making them, there's also a lot of misinformation about what does what, which leads to blind allegiances to certain brands, woods, etc. Factor in cost to all of that, and it seems like quite a challenge for makers of guitars to sell new materials to the general guitar-buying public.

But now that I've at least entertained the thought of buying more responsibly, I figure on some level that opens up the possibility of me actually buying a non-traditional guitar. For me, a big part of it is that it takes so fricking long just to find out what works and what I actually like. I suppose just being happy with what I have and realizing that tone isn't as important as I think it is would also help in getting myself to accept new ideas.

I like the bamboo idea, that's pretty cool. I'd like to play a bamboo guitar, just to see what it's like.

That link said that First Act makes a bamboo guitar, but I can't seem to find it anywhere on their web site. I wonder if maybe they stopped production.

 

[kiteman]

Veleno makes all aluminum guitars. Expensive as hell though. Mark Farner (Grand Funk) has one and he paid $10,000 for it.

Here's him playing it in CalJam '74. Sounds good to me. I want one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZj1uElADZw

 

[NWBasser]

Bamboo is pretty cool. I took this photo of a Calfee bamboo bike prototype (plus carbon fiber lug joints) 5 years ago at the first independent bike builder's expo. They now produce these, but you don't want to know how much they cost. The joints are now made of hemp (not a typo!). http://www.calfeedesign.com/products/bamboo/

The new versions:

Wow Doug, those bikes look pretty cool. Not sure I'd really trust bamboo for a mountain bike though.

 

[markb]

Wow Doug, those bikes look pretty cool. Not sure I'd really trust bamboo for a mountain bike though.

The Chinese use it for scaffolding on very tall buildings. It's incredibly strong in compression. I think Yamaha made a bamboo acoustic years ago.

 

[jtees4]

I don't worry if my gear is sustainable. If it's available for sale and I want it, I buy it. Let the companies worry, let the government worry, let the politicians worry. I am in the US. When China and India worry as much as us, then I'll get more interested in the topic.

 

[bcdon]

I don't worry if my gear is sustainable. If it's available for sale and I want it, I buy it. Let the companies worry, let the government worry, let the politicians worry. I am in the US. When China and India worry as much as us, then I'll get more interested in the topic.

I Totally agree with you jtess4. Welcome to The Fret! Introduce yourself over at the player's section so everyone can say a proper howdy. :dude

 

[cebreez]

Wood is the only sustainable material for making guitars, aside from the steel components. The "trick" is to buy ONE that you like and stick with it. Then your individual impact may be a small one. Outside of that if you buy guitar after guitar and amp after amp as we all here at the Fret Net tend to do then you will never be able to call yourself green. Synthetics will never be as green as their wood counterparts.