Gibsons and copies

[NWBasser]

OK, this is somewhat of a philosophical question.

I have an Epiphone Les Paul Standard copy(?) and, while a very good guitar, doesn't cut it straight up against a Gibson LP. No big surprise there and I had no expectations otherwise.

However, there are a whole lot of different LP copies, both past and present, which seem to span a vast range of quality from rotten plywood to some Japanese copies reportedly exceeding the quality of a USA Gibson. Of course, one must keep in mind that USA Gibson quality has varied more than a bit over the course of more than 50 years of LP production.

Is it really possible, and worth the effort, through diligent research to find an off-brand copy for considerably less money than a Gibson that will sound, feel, and play better than the original?

I've heard stories of Grecos, Epi Elitists, etc. that make them seem better than the Gibsons. How much stock should a person put into these statements?

And just what do people mean by "better"?

PS- Sorry if I opened a can of worms here!

 

[Spudman]

I think it's possible. A good guitar is a good guitar regardless of the name printed on it. I saw LA Guns a couple of times and Tracy was using Tradition LPs and he was pretty happy with them. I've seen other players using Epiphones and were happy as well.

It's probably going to come down to what sound you are looking for. That will probably only be found by trying a bunch of guitars until you get to the "ah ha!" point. There are so many players using guitars other than Gibson and on the recording I doubt if you can tell what they are using.

Feel, weight, and tone are the factors. If you find a guitar that has what you want in those categories then just go for it no matter the brand. If you are buying a guitar untried then it's going to be a crap shoot. You might find what you are after...but you might not.

 

[Blaze]

Early 80 s Japan guitar like Greco ,Burny and Tokai had made the almost prefect replicas of the original Gibbys for the Japan market obviously at low price..

So, in 1988 Gibson reacted to these by creating there own replicas of there originals :thwap for Japan market (same low price) called Orville by Gibson (Gibson Pu s ) and Orville (Japanese Paf) till 1998 or something.

You can find some awesome replicas from those years on the net or at vintage stores ..

I dont know much about the new Replicas but most of them are from China or Korea or like todays Edwards and Tokai a mix of Chinese and Japanese..

 

[ZMAN]

The only thing that separates an Epi from a Gibson LP is the electronics. The wood, the tuners are very close. I have a Japanese Lp Elitist and it is every bit as nice as my Gibbys. It has US electronics in it.
I have recently upgraded my Gibson LP Goldtop and I used a set of Burst Buckers 1 and 2 and an RS guitar works pot an cap kit. The total was about 250 plus install at 45 dollars. I took a 1900 dollar guitar and it now plays and sounds as good as a 3000 dollar historic.
Take a 400 dollar Epi and you will have an amazing guitar that will sound excellent and play as nice.
Don't be fooled by the headstock.

 

[FrankenFretter]

The only thing that separates an Epi from a Gibson LP is the electronics. The wood, the tuners are very close. I have a Japanese Lp Elitist and it is every bit as nice as my Gibbys. It has US electronics in it.
I have recently upgraded my Gibson LP Goldtop and I used a set of Burst Buckers 1 and 2 and an RS guitar works pot an cap kit. The total was about 250 plus install at 45 dollars. I took a 1900 dollar guitar and it now plays and sounds as good as a 3000 dollar historic.
Take a 400 dollar Epi and you will have an amazing guitar that will sound excellent and play as nice.
Don't be fooled by the headstock.

So, if you take for example my Epi Tribute LP which has the US pickups and electronics, the deep tenon, and other nice upgrades you don't normally see on Epis, is there really much difference?

 

[ZMAN]

So, if you take for example my Epi Tribute LP which has the US pickups and electronics, the deep tenon, and other nice upgrades you don't normally see on Epis, is there really much difference?

The Purists would say yes but truthfully my Elitist LP is an nice a guitar as any of my Gibsons. It is just the headstock. I would say your tribute just saved you a 1000 bucks plus.

 

[mrmudcat]

Franken id still upgrade to better taper pots that measure 500k + Ive had some gibby pots measure real low......and frankly hate the caps compared to newer hovland ,rs branded hovs., they also use nice vintage sounding jensens wcr branded hovs,sprague etc. Of course original bumble bees and black beauty's FTW! All the pots ive gotten from rs were over 500k and ripped111

 

[Jimi75]

You play a copy of the real thing, it's a great guitar, you start modding it, without recognizing that you are longing for the real thing...In my case it was like that with my ESP Eclipse. When I bought my Gibson LP I all of a sudden felt that my search had ended.

Is it worth buying a good copy, like a Greco or Edwards? Well, yes it is, as those are great guitars, but you have to be sure that this is what you really want. As long as you are asking yourself what it would be like to play the real thing, it's not the right decision, because you will never be satisfied with you copy then.

This now is subjective, but I have tried all of the reknown copies and in the end my Gibson makes me so much happier! And this is what counts to me.

 

[Eric]

Well, this isn't TGP, so maybe this discussion will remain kind of civilized...

I like cheaper electric guitars, and I generally adhere to the idea that electrics are just wood and metal -- the sum of their parts. I just can't get behind the idea that the big boys have some extra something that is undefinable.

The lowdown on a lot of the imports from China and Korea is that they tend to be a bit cheaper on the pickups, etc. I do think there's something to what ZMAN says about electronics.

IMO, you have to look at whether the name on the headstock matters to you. If it does, it does -- there's no getting around that.

A guitar is a guitar is a guitar like Spudman said. Yes necks, bridge placement, tuners, frets, and all of that stuff matters, but once you have that, the name itself is moot.

Look at it this way: if you had four guitars handed to you, could you tell the difference between 1) A Gibby, 2) A good clone like a Greco, 3) A Heritage, and 4) Some high-end custom boutique LP copy, provided they were all set up well? I know I couldn't. If you could, more power to you, but I think people have a pretty powerful ability to convince themselves things exist when they really don't. Just look at tone...

FWIW, I don't own any expensive or name-brand guits, so I'm not exactly the authority on how copies stack up to the name-brand ones, because I haven't A/B'd them. I just have my opinions.

 

[Jimi75]

Well, this isn't TGP, so maybe this discussion will remain kind of civilized...

I like cheaper electric guitars, and I generally adhere to the idea that electrics are just wood and metal -- the sum of their parts. I just can't get behind the idea that the big boys have some extra something that is undefinable.

The lowdown on a lot of the imports from China and Korea is that they tend to be a bit cheaper on the pickups, etc. I do think there's something to what ZMAN says about electronics.

IMO, you have to look at whether the name on the headstock matters to you. If it does, it does -- there's no getting around that.

A guitar is a guitar is a guitar like Spudman said. Yes necks, bridge placement, tuners, frets, and all of that stuff matters, but once you have that, the name itself is moot.

Look at it this way: if you had four guitars handed to you, could you tell the difference between 1) A Gibby, 2) A good clone like a Greco, 3) A Heritage, and 4) Some high-end custom boutique LP copy, provided they were all set up well? I know I couldn't. If you could, more power to you, but I think people have a pretty powerful ability to convince themselves things exist when they really don't. Just look at tone...

FWIW, I don't own any expensive or name-brand guits, so I'm not exactly the authority on how copies stack up to the name-brand ones, because I haven't A/B'd them. I just have my opinions.

Some good points here Eric. I'd always suggest A/B-ing some guitars it's an experience and it let you know if there is a difference to you or not.
Sometimes it's hard to describe in words what the real difference is. don't know how many players would pass the blindfolded test, but that's not the only thing that matters when you buy a guitar.

 

[Katastrophe]

Is it really possible, and worth the effort, through diligent research to find an off-brand copy for considerably less money than a Gibson that will sound, feel, and play better than the original?

I've heard stories of Grecos, Epi Elitists, etc. that make them seem better than the Gibsons. How much stock should a person put into these statements?

"Better" is a subjective statement, based on personal preference. As such, a copy may not be "better" for you. You would have to compare the two to get your own feelings on the matter. There may be objective factors to consider, like fit and finish and overall quality, but how it sounds and plays (all other factors being equal) comes down to how it feels in your hands.

A copy is just that, a replica of the real thing. There's nothing wrong with that at all. However, pickups may sound different, and the specs might not be *exactly* how they make 'em at the Gibby plant.

There are good copies out there, with tight quality control, and at a lesser price that what "big G" commands these days. I've read good things about the Edwards, Tokai, Greco, Burny and other Japanese models. Of course, there's always Epi, and Agile.

In truth, though, I haven't really found an Epi that I could bond with in my travels.

Also, give the PRS SE singlecut a look. While substantially different than the others mentioned (different scale, neck shape, body thickness, et cetera), they are damn fine guitars for any price. They are well built and sound great.

 

[ZMAN]

Franken id still upgrade to better taper pots that measure 500k + Ive had some gibby pots measure real low......and frankly hate the caps compared to newer hovland ,rs branded hovs., they also use nice vintage sounding jensens wcr branded hovs,sprague etc. Of course original bumble bees and black beauty's FTW! All the pots ive gotten from rs were over 500k and ripped111

I agree 100% with Muddy. I have a Gibson GT that I recently modded with an RS kit. 500k pots, Luxe bumble bee caps. 84 US shipped. The GT had 300k Gibson electronics and these miniscule caps. I was changing the pickups so I decided to go whole hog, and what a difference. If you just did this upgrade without a pickup change, your guitar would sound amazing. Most of the newer Asian pickups are pretty close to the originals. A new switch is a must on Epis as well.
Also if you can pick up an earlier Japanese, or even Korean copy they are excellent guitars and a great platform for mods.

 

[FrankenFretter]

I agree 100% with Muddy. I have a Gibson GT that I recently modded with an RS kit. 500k pots, Luxe bumble bee caps. 84 US shipped. The GT had 300k Gibson electronics and these miniscule caps. I was changing the pickups so I decided to go whole hog, and what a difference. If you just did this upgrade without a pickup change, your guitar would sound amazing. Most of the newer Asian pickups are pretty close to the originals. A new switch is a must on Epis as well.
Also if you can pick up an earlier Japanese, or even Korean copy they are excellent guitars and a great platform for mods.

I read about your upgrade, Z. The Tribute has Mallory 150 caps, so I don't feel the need to change those, but maybe sometime in the future I'll get some audio taper volume pots from RS.

I also have an Agile, which as you said is a great modding platform. You can read about my mods here. I've already been in touch with Mud about the minor issues since the mods, but overall it does sound good.

In my mind, an Epi is just a Chinese-built Les Paul. I don't consider it a copy. There are differences to be sure, but it might as well have Gibson on the headstock when it's plugged into my Marshall. I'm like Eric in that I don't spend a ton of money on my new guitars. I'm always looking for a good bang-for-the-buck deal, and in the Agile and Epi Tribute I have found just that. I don't think at my current skill level a genuine Gibson or Fender would be a good investment. I'm sure there are those who would disagree with me, but that's my personal feeling.

 

[ZMAN]

I have owned 3 Epi LPs and two Sheratons. I still have an Epi elitist, and a Sheraton. I love both of those guitars. The only other one I really miss and should not have sold, was a Korean LP Custom Plus in Heritage Cherry. That guitar just sounded and played like a dream. I got fed up of the gold hardware tarnishing, and that was a dumb move. If I could find another one as nice I would be all over it. I am lucky enough to be able to buy just about any guitar I want, but it took me many years to finally realize that it is how the guitar sounds, looks and feels is what counts. Not what is on the headstock.
I would not mess with the Tribute, and the only reason I did the GT changes was that I didn't like the Ceramic pickups, and I wasn't sure how these PUs would sound with the 300k pots.
The agile looks like a real sweet guitar.
Sorry but you might have mentioned the black pickgaurd, where did you get it?
That color combo looks exactly like my Korean Epi Custom plus did.

 

[Eric]

Some good points here Eric. I'd always suggest A/B-ing some guitars it's an experience and it let you know if there is a difference to you or not.
Sometimes it's hard to describe in words what the real difference is. don't know how many players would pass the blindfolded test, but that's not the only thing that matters when you buy a guitar.

Yeah, it's something I wish I could do more of. The thing that frequently concerns me about going into a Guitar Center and comparing guits is that you never know about stuff like whether the setups are comparable (e.g. if the intonation is correct on both), what gauge strings are on a given axe, how new the strings are, etc. I think those things color my opinion of a guitar a lot, so I try to even that out when I do compare guitars.

You're right too that sometimes it's not anything you can describe, but just a feeling. I mean, a guitar is the sum of its parts, but there are also a lot of parts and manufacturing tolerances to take into account. My big thing is that I don't always trust myself to separate feeling from the name on a headstock. I'd personally *want* to do a blind test, because then I could actually remove the brand from the equation.

 

[R_of_G]

I concur with Spud that a good guitar is a good guitar regardless of brand name.

"Better" is in the hands of the player. It all depends on how it feels in your hands and whether or not it makes the sounds you want it to which, as we've discussed before, I believe is much more in the hands than the guitar anyway.

Point is, I've had two friends, both of whom have toured extensively and played hundreds of guitars, tell me that my Squier Strat plays as well or better than any American Fender Strat they've played. Not bad for $125.

 

[FrankenFretter]

I concur with Spud that a good guitar is a good guitar regardless of brand name.

"Better" is in the hands of the player. It all depends on how it feels in your hands and whether or not it makes the sounds you want it to which, as we've discussed before, I believe is much more in the hands than the guitar anyway.

Point is, I've had two friends, both of whom have toured extensively and played hundreds of guitars, tell me that my Squier Strat plays as well or better than any American Fender Strat they've played. Not bad for $125.

As they say, it's not the tool, it's the mechanic. In my case a $3500 guitar wouldn't make up for my poor skills. I have a friend who tried my SX Strat copy and made it sound fantastic; he's a great player, and it seems that no matter what he has in his hands, he can make it sound good.

 

[FrankenFretter]

The agile looks like a real sweet guitar.
Sorry but you might have mentioned the black pickgaurd, where did you get it?
That color combo looks exactly like my Korean Epi Custom plus did.

I bought the pickguard through Rondo. I figured it was the best bet for one that fit, although the Epi seems to have the same pickup spacing, etc. Now that I have the black pickguard, I'm wondering why I didn't just leave the Agile pickguard-less to show that fine flamed CSB.

 

[NWBasser]

Sean, I think that the Tribute sounds damn fine as-is. It has that raw bite that really stands out.

Some of my criteria for guitars are such things as fretwork, which is very important, sound, balance, and neck shape.

In general, I've found that MIA instruments from whatever mfg. have a bit better quality fretwork than off-shore ones. At least that's been my impression so far.

Since I come from bassland, I'm more familiar with the multitude of jazz bass clones from the likes of Sadowsky, Lakland, Avella Coppollo, Lull, etc. that are generally considered as various grades above a Fender. And they usually come at a higher price too. Sometimes, much higher...

Then there are the cheaper copies like SX, etc. that are good values, but not quite up to the real deal.

As far as I know, jazz bass copies are either more expensive or much cheaper and the quality is usually reflected in that. I'm not aware of any that would be directly comparable to the big "F" in quality for less $$. Supposedly, some of the new Squiers come close to doing that.

Going back to guitars though, I'm far less familiar with the various makers which makes it far more difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. I do know that MIJ Fender basses are very good and was wondering if a similar quality LP copy was available for less than a full-zoot Gibson.

For now, I'm rather happy with my Epi although it seems it may take some fretwork, electronic upgrades, etc. to really set it off. I'm more of a buy something good and play the snot out of it, rather than upgrade, sort of person though.

 

[DeanEVO_Dude]

Well, this isn't TGP, so maybe this discussion will remain kind of civilized...

I like cheaper electric guitars, and I generally adhere to the idea that electrics are just wood and metal -- the sum of their parts. I just can't get behind the idea that the big boys have some extra something that is undefinable.

The lowdown on a lot of the imports from China and Korea is that they tend to be a bit cheaper on the pickups, etc. I do think there's something to what ZMAN says about electronics.

IMO, you have to look at whether the name on the headstock matters to you. If it does, it does -- there's no getting around that.

A guitar is a guitar is a guitar like Spudman said. Yes necks, bridge placement, tuners, frets, and all of that stuff matters, but once you have that, the name itself is moot.

Look at it this way: if you had four guitars handed to you, could you tell the difference between 1) A Gibby, 2) A good clone like a Greco, 3) A Heritage, and 4) Some high-end custom boutique LP copy, provided they were all set up well? I know I couldn't. If you could, more power to you, but I think people have a pretty powerful ability to convince themselves things exist when they really don't. Just look at tone...

FWIW, I don't own any expensive or name-brand guits, so I'm not exactly the authority on how copies stack up to the name-brand ones, because I haven't A/B'd them. I just have my opinions.

IMHO, I agree with what Eric says on this one. My personal preference is for the Korean made guitars over the Chinese made, they seem to be made better. There are three botom lines:
1. Price (I list this first due to my limited budget and ability to play)
2. Sound/Tone (almost as important as the first, but, again, limited ability...)
3. Name (does it really mean that much? To some, YES!)

So, for me, it is the "cheap coppies" that I get. I enjoy playing (or trying to play), but with the limited ability that I have (not to mention budget), just can't justify a $2k or $3k guitar purchase (though with all the stuff I have bought in the past couple of years, I probably could have afforded one in that price range :thwap ).

Kinda on the same subject (but not exactly), I have been to GC and looked at some of the guitars by Gibson and Epiphone. Can someone that knows, explain why the Epi's have (seemingly) better fit and finish? I mean, I looked at the finish on some Gibsons (SGs, 335s, Les Pauls, etc.) along the side of the neck and it is not smooth, rough fret edges, cracks in the binding at each fret, etc... I know I live in Colorado, so humidity and altitude play a part, but I don't, for the most part find this on the Epi's.
What gives? Is it the nitro-laquer? Has Gibson lost its QC? Sometimes I think I am just too darn picky? Anyway, seeing this also makes me think twice about spending $2000 on a guitar.

 

[markb]

When you bring QC into the equation we shouldn't underestimate sample variation. A particular Epiphone might just be better than a particular Gibson hanging next to it in a particular shop. This does not mean that all Epiphones are better than all Gibsons, just that you got lucky

 

[Eric]

When you bring QC into the equation we shouldn't underestimate sample variation. A particular Epiphone might just be better than a particular Gibson hanging next to it in a particular shop. This does not mean that all Epiphones are better than all Gibsons, just that you got lucky

Good point. Oddly enough (since it was a reply to a tangent), I think your point is actually somewhat related to the original question.

What's your impression of NWB's original question about clones vs. Gibsons? Can an imitator ultimately make a product as good or better than the original, or is it an asymptotic pursuit?

 

[markb]

Good point. Oddly enough (since it was a reply to a tangent), I think your point is actually somewhat related to the original question.

What's your impression of NWB's original question about clones vs. Gibsons? Can an imitator ultimately make a product as good or better than the original, or is it an asymptotic pursuit?

While a copy could be made just as well as or better than the original, it will never be the "real thing". A Sid Poole (UK custom builder, no longer with us) "Les Paul" easily outranks a factory Gibson but, deep down you'd still think of it as a "copy".
We are very sensitive to the value of brands these days, mostly because marketing people have sold us the concept of "authenticity". Hence all the reissues, relics, "'59", tribute and signature models not to mention licensed copies like Squier or Epiphone. They are all striving to be what they are most definitely not.

So, yes, I think you can make a better Les Paul than Gibson and cheaper. The question then becomes "can you sell it?".

 

[deeaa]

Yes, I've noted some real bad Gibson finish flaws & better made/finished Epis here too, for a long while now. When I bought me an Explorer, in all honesty, the Epi I finally bought was indeed superior to the Gibson contender in EVERY detail except electric sound, and that was easy to correct with better pickups - after which it swept the floor with the Gibson one in the store.

Not to say all gibsons are worse, my LP Standard was a terrific guitar in all respects, but I do see some very badly made gibbys now and zen.

 

[NWBasser]

Yes, I've noted some real bad Gibson finish flaws & better made/finished Epis here too, for a long while now. When I bought me an Explorer, in all honesty, the Epi I finally bought was indeed superior to the Gibson contender in EVERY detail except electric sound, and that was easy to correct with better pickups - after which it swept the floor with the Gibson one in the store.

Not to say all gibsons are worse, my LP Standard was a terrific guitar in all respects, but I do see some very badly made gibbys now and zen.

This raises an important point of consistency of quality. This is something that I've seen a lot in bass manufacturers, that with some brands, the odds of getting an excellent quality bass are very high while with others your chances go down a bit.

The ones with less consistency can be very great instruments and might be just what you want, but you have to play it a fair bit to be certain. A bit of "buyer beware" in that.

The ones with stellar records of quality consistency; well, you stand a better chance of picking up a good one but it might not have the exact tone and feel that you're looking for.

From what I'm reading here, it sounds like Gibson might be comparable to the Fender basses of yesteryear in that you could get one that's absolutely magic, or not....

FWIW, it's my understanding that the current Fender basses have very high consistency of quality and I would expect that to apply to their guitar line as well.

Thanks for the information guys, this has been very enlightening and civil. I appreciate that everyone has been sticking to observations and facts which is very useful to me.

 

[deeaa]

Indeed. In my experience it's usually mainstream Japanese etc. manufacturers that make the most consistent good quality. It's very hard to find a bad Yamaha or an Ibanez or such. Don't think I ever saw one. They are very very good quality thru and thru no question about it. Kinda the same with cars, Japanese cars are very reliable and good quality, whether you like them or not, or whether they have the feel you like. I don't like them Toyotas etc, to me they're fugly and feel like worn slippers to drive, very tasteless and boring in every detail. But if I had to pick a car to drive accross Sahara I'd surely pick a Toyota no doubt.

Other than that, often the 'starting' companies make stellar instruments. Early Charvels, Jacksons, even Charvettes, very good stuff usually. Just an example.

Big manufacturers...seems to fluctuate. I don't know if it's the corporate way of running things, but seems to me Gibson, Fender quality changes a LOT over the years. Possibly by patches as well, who knows.

All I know in early 90's we sold a lot of Fenders and they were largely VERY bad quality, and USA models in particular. We had like half a dozen warped neck returns in a year...neck woods with hardly any wood grain visible, just cellulose, neck sets that you could fit a creditcard between, paint defects...

And the funny thing was at the same time we were getting the 'new' Mexican made strats and they simply floored the USA made ones with better quality. A lot of pro players who came to buy a Strat walked out with a mexi one and a set of better pickups&electrics.

But Gibsons were very good in that time it seemed.

Currently, to me it seems like it's again tables turned...I pick up an U.S. made strat and it's perfect, everything about it is exceptionally nice. Gibsons, another story.

I guess they're like wines...you have to know what vintage to buy

But in case of Yamahas etc...only guitars I might buy sight unseen are quality japanese made instruments. Well just now probably I'd be brave enough to try a Fender.

 

[ZMAN]

Whether you agree or not I think it is the shape of the headstock that makes or breaks a Gibson copy. The Japanese have solved that issue. In Japan the Epiphone LPs come with a Gibson style open book headstock with Epiphone logo. From 20 feet away you would be hard pressed to tell that difference. Back in the 80s the copies all used that headtstock, and they are now rivalling the Gibsons for price in the Vintage market.
Of course Gibson realized and took the manufacturers to court about it, but now they sanction the guitars that are supposedly only for the Japanese market.
As far as workmanship in the Gibson's vs Epiphones I have not seen that.
In fact I sorted through about a dozen of the first LP Standards shipped from China and found loose tuners, skewed bridges and poorly set up guitars.
The bodies and necks were virtually identical because of the CNC machines, but I guess it took a while to get the QC up to standard. Now I see them as pretty well on an even footing.
When you speak of Fenders the Indonesian, and Chinese made Strats are now as good as MIM and approaching US quality without a doubt. Agian sanctioned by Fender.
And I think that if the Tribute had come with an open book headstock with the Epi logo you would not be able to keep them in stock.

 

[FrankenFretter]

Interesting that nobody has mentioned Heritage. Would they even be considered copies? I suppose they are, but with a big difference.

 

[Jimi75]

Interesting that nobody has mentioned Heritage. Would they even be considered copies? I suppose they are, but with a big difference.

I do not consider Heritage a copy. It's the old Gibson staff, factory, blueprints, headstock angle, etc...Lets not talk about Heritage as copycat here, maybe the Heritage is more original than some Gibson :crazyguy

 

[marnold]

I do not consider Heritage a copy. It's the old Gibson staff, factory, blueprints, headstock angle, etc...Lets not talk about Heritage as copycat here, maybe the Heritage is more original than some Gibson :crazyguy

I was going to say. Heritage IS Gibson. Still in old Kazoo.