How Much of a Difference Do Caps Make?

[just strum]

I've read about pots and pickups making a difference and obviously have experienced it first hand, but I never really read where caps make a difference, until:

http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=11425

Since my question that is relating to a mod, I figured this is the best spot to post it.

Would anyone familiar with the use of caps, please post what they know and discuss how much of a difference they can make.

 

[ted s]

Depends on if you wear it normal or a little sideways, in which case you get one of these .. :spank:

 

[marnold]

You will hear people scream that high-end caps sound soooo much better. If you think they will, they will. The cap's value will have a lot more of an effect on the tone than the type of cap will. Here I'm referring to usage in a low-voltage environment, like a guitar with passive pickups.

 

[just strum]

Depends on if you wear it normal or a little sideways, in which case you get one of these .. :spank:

Did you catch Michael Steele clip?

 

[markb]

 

[mrmudcat]

I do prefer paper and oil caps(vitamin q's , black beauties,bumblebees the new jensens for my guitars chasing vintage /creamier tone......for my modern screamers hoveland , rsguitarworks,wcr's new caps (both of these companies I think are using rebadged hovelands) are used.On fenders chasing vintage tone, vintage phonebooks!! On modern strats orange drops for sure.I do try out different values(.22-Bridge,.18-Neck ) on buckers but stick to the norm most times.(.22-Bridge neck on buckers .47 on strats/teles most times) :rockon:

 

[just strum]

Okay, but what exactly are the differences. Can you really hear a noticeable difference and what is the difference?

 

[kiteman]

I have a set of Blackouts on my DC127. I changed the cap on the bridge from 47 to 22 and got a little more treble with the knob on 10. The pots are 25K.

 

[markb]

I have a set of Blackouts on my DC127. I changed the cap on the bridge from 47 to 22 and got a little more treble with the knob on 10. The pots are 25K.

Different values will make a difference. As far as different types of cap goes, I'm sceptical to say the least. If you can hear the difference and feel like paying for it, good on yer.

 

[M29]

Strum,

I have been wrestling with this for a couple days now and I just cannot come up with a way of explaining it without getting way too technical. It is a rather simple thing that they do but to explain it is tough without going into a bunch of electrical gibberish and charts to show the frequency roll offs and what not. I was hoping one of the electrical minds around here could explain it, I just don't know how to go about it. I have been searching the web and can't find anything without it being way too technical. I did see an explanation a while back on one of the amplifier discussion boards but I just can't find it. I think it was on the 18 watt forum or maybe the valve junior forum.
Sorry.

M29

 

[red]

Different values will make a difference. As far as different types of cap goes, I'm sceptical to say the least. If you can hear the difference and feel like paying for it, good on yer.

I'm not sure if the type of capacitor would make a difference in a guitar, but I did a test with the 220nF tone caps in an Ibanez TS9 Tube Screamer pedal - with a bunch of people around, I've used a stock pedal (with tantalum tone caps) and a pedal modified with WIMA metal film caps. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't the only one hearing a difference, and did not tell my friends anything that might influence them; also, they were not musicians, so they had no preconceptions about caps or anything like that. They actually had no clue what a cap is or what it does.

The vote was unanimous - with the tone knob maxed out, drive maxed out, volume at unity gain, the pedal with the metal film caps was smoother, and the one with the tantalum caps was grainier (audibly more coarse).

So my ears have taught me that indeed the type of cap does make a difference. Probably not everywhere in a circuit though, and I don't know about caps in guitars.

 

[markb]

I'd ask yourself what tolerance rating those components had. Most cheap ceramic caps used in guitars and pedals are +/- 10% at best.

 

[red]

I'd ask yourself what tolerance rating those components had. Most cheap ceramic caps used in guitars and pedals are +/- 10% at best.

I've saved the old caps, it says ".22 35b" on them - but I think that the "b" refers to the size of the cap, not it's tolerance. The metal film caps I've used are these (click for specs) - mine say they're 10%.

Mr. Robert Keeley also claims that metal film caps are smoother and more hifi when used in the tone shaping part of the circuit, and after trying it out myself I fully believe him.

I honestly don't think it's a tolerance issue at all. It's a cap type issue. I've now tested my modified TS9 against a freshly built BYOC OD2 and with everything about the same it's the same difference in smoothness. And I think BYOC probably included better tantalum caps in their kits. With all due respect, we'll have to agree to disagree - as much as I love a good debate I know what I've heard.

Doesn't mean that smoothness is a good attribute for everyone. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[markb]

Hey, I'm not arguing. Whatever works for you is good :AOK:

 

[marnold]

You can test it pretty simply, actually. Solder a couple of alligator to your tone pot. Swap out various types and sizes of caps and see which ones you like best! Make sure to do recordings so you can go back and listen to the differences.

 

[duhvoodooman]

Well, this is a bit of a hot button to me. In a nutshell, I believe that the type & quality of caps makes an audible difference in some applications, guitar tone caps included. A while back, I bought a few NOS paper & oil caps from a highly trustworthy source (at very reasonable prices!) and have tried them in a couple of my guitars. They do indeed give a slightly warmer, richer sound than the film caps they replaced. Let me point out that adverb: slightly.

The problem I have is not with these caps but the people who sell them for exhorbitant prices, making all kinds of sweeping claims about how they'll magically transform your guitar's tone into a bastion of vintage goodness. Male bovine excrement! These claims are used primarily to jack up buyer expectations and get people to pay preposterous prices for capacitors that are worth a buck or two. And I swear if I read the term "mojo" again, I'll puke. What exactly is that??? How do you measure it? And I'm going to pay $20 apiece for the privelege of owning said undefinable, indescribable "mojo"? I don't think so....

Sorry, but I have a long scientific background, and if it can't be measured and objectively explained, then I will remain skeptical of such claims. Maybe it's out there, but I've yet to see a scientific explanation of why certain caps would sound so fantastically superior to others, as some of these snake oil merchants would lead you to believe. What I would REALLY like to see is a truly scientifically designed experiment--specifically a "double-blind test"--where a group of listeners hears various tone caps under strictly controlled conditions and selects which sound best, without having a clue as to which is which. But you'll never see any of the cap sellers sponsor such an idea! Too much chance the truth could come out. The French wine industry got talked into doing exactly this with some California wines back in the mid-'70s, and haven't gotten over the embarrassment yet....

 

[red]

I agree, hence I'm stopping at "grainy" vs "smooth" . "Vintage" also has a place as an attribute when describing a certain tone, but we'd indeed do well to stop before factoring that in any way into the price tag. There's no inherent reason why the classic vintage guitar tones are better or worse than more modern sounding equipment.

In fact, my theory, and take this with a grain of salt, is that the reason most people love vintage tone and are willing to pay top dollar for a vintage amplifier or electric guitar is that many excellent records have been made using that gear, and now we can't separate tone from composition. Had Hendrix played an Ibanez guitar into a solid state amplifier with a digital multi-effects processor I'm sure everybody would be looking down on tube amps, boutique pedals, and single coil Fenders.

That being said, I've never in my life had to buy any caps worth more than $1 a piece. And those were the expensive ones. Perhaps it's simply because I don't have access to the fancy NOS stuff at any local shop here in Eastern Europe. Can't say I'm losing any sleep over that though.

 

[Bloozcat]

I agree with DVM that the PIO caps do make a subtle difference in guitar tone. Smoother and warmer are definitely the adjectives that come to mind. I might add that I noticed a slight difference in the curve of the tone pots with the PIO's as well, a little more usable.

You have to think of caps as just a small piece of the much larger guitar tone puzzle. They will never make a bad guitar suddenly sound good, nor will they make a good guitar suddenly sound great. But, they will give just that little extra mojo to a great sounding guitar. Maybe it'll only be with certain amp settings, but when you nail it, you know it. If you can get some NOS PIO type caps at a decent price, it's well worth the effort to try them. But don't pay the big bucks some are asking because big bucks usually = high expectations, and you'll be setting yourself up for disappointment by that criteria.

I had posted this pic some time back that shows a down and dirty quick change rig for cap testing. Courtesy of Premier Guitar.

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Mar/Auditioning_Tone_Capacitors.aspx

And the earlier thefret.net thread:
http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=6516

 

[duhvoodooman]

But, they will give just that little extra mojo to a great sounding guitar....

You used that word that on purpose!!! :reallymad: oke:

Thanks for posting those links--couldn't remember where I'd seen that. I may try that sometime with my Tele, because it's s-o-o-o easy to get at the tone pot wiring on that control plate set-up....

 

[Bloozcat]

You used that word that on purpose!!! :reallymad: oke:

Thanks for posting those links--couldn't remember where I'd seen that. I may try that sometime with my Tele, because it's s-o-o-o easy to get at the tone pot wiring on that control plate set-up....

I meant to say voodoo...no, can't use that either...

See that DVM...you got all the cool words already....

BTW: I enjoyed you wine article. :AOK:

 

[duhvoodooman]

BTW: I enjoyed you wine article. :AOK:

You might enjoy this movie, then:

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

And I swear if I read the term "mojo" again, I'll puke. What exactly is that??? How do you measure it? And I'm going to pay $20 apiece for the privelege of owning said undefinable, indescribable "mojo"? I don't think so....

It wouldn't work anyway as we have been quietly buying up all the mojo in the universe.

You humans scoff, but wait until we get critical mass & then you'll be singing a different tune.

 

[duhvoodooman]

You humans scoff, but wait until we get critical mass & then you'll be singing a different tune.

Apparently while accompanying ourselves on crappy-sounding, mojo-less guitars....