How to learn the fretboard

[Robert]

Why would it be important to know where all the notes are?

Because if your intention is to play a sequence of notes (perhaps they are written down), how will you be able to if you don't know where they are on the fretboard?

It's like trying to write a letter if you don't know the alphabet.

 

[deeaa]

Because if your intention is to play a sequence of notes (perhaps they are written down), how will you be able to if you don't know where they are on the fretboard?

It's like trying to write a letter if you don't know the alphabet.

Yeah, sure, but you can just listen to it and play them by ear. Just like when you hear a song, would you need to know notes to hum along with it, do you? You just know them not by their names but by their pitch. I hardly ever really look at the fretboard anyway when I play, so I don't really know if knowing the note places on it would help.

I've never tried to play along with notes...I don't understand those at all. But i do know the basic chords and can play a song with chord names marked. A few times I have read from tabs how does a certain song go, but usually, as a rule, I'm not interested in learning what others play or have played, although I like to _listen to them_ but with playing I'm only interested in making my own tunes and riffs. I suppose I've only ever in 20 or so years learned maybe a dozen riffs or so by other players...so I have never felt a need to learn 'em either.

Despite I don't read notation, they do help a LOT when I'm singing...I view it as a graphical display not much different from someone waving their hand 'go up' and 'go lower' etc. and they make it easier to sing.

On the guitar, I don't see the guitar neck as always going up however...hm, it's funny, I guess I just go by 'areas' which are interlapping, not thinking of the instrument as just one but six, and sometimes not horizontal but vertical - I guess scales if you like.

Sure, if I often needed to play something I didn't write myself, knowing those notes would be helpful indeed.

 

[Kodiak3D]

I think it all just comes down to your style of playing. Some people do, some don't. Some people just remember the music they come up with, some write it down. Some use music notation, some use tab. Etc.

It certainly doesn't do any HARM to learn the fretboard (I don't know it, but I can figure it out, and I'm trying to learn).

 

[jpfeifer]

Hi Robert,

I don't know if this will help or not, but one technique I ran across (that worked really well with some beginners ) was to have the student memorize only the 6th string first, using the fret markers as the main guide posts. (i.e. test them on the names of notes at the 3rd, 5th, and 7th posistions first. Get those down, and them have them figure out where the other notes are relative to the ones they have memorized. (ie. C is 1/2 step above B, and F is whole step below G)

After they have that down and are able to cover most of the sixth string notes (even if it takes a few seconds for them to figure out where a note is), then have them memorize notes on the 5th string and 6th string together. In other words, make them memorize groupings of notes such as (C is the note on the 5th string just below G) and (D is the note on the 5th string just below A ), etc. Then assign a word or phrase to help them memorize these groupings. For example, you can use the word "Go Car" as a way to remember that G and C are adjacent to each other on the 6th/5th string 3rd fret. In a similar way you can use the word "After Dark" as a way to memorize that A and D are adjacent to each other on the 6th/5th sting on the 5th fret, "Big Elephant" can be used for B/E on the 7th fret, and so on. Use these fret marker places as a starting point to have them learn all the notes on the 6th/5th strings first, then work your way onto the other strings gradually.

Maybe this technique can help as a starting point? I find that most people can memorize the 6th/5th strings over a few weeks since they can put it to use in playing barre chord progression when they know where all the root notes are.

Once they have the 6th/5th strings down, then you can move to the 4th string, and use the same technique of memorizing these notes relative to the notes on the 5th string that they already know, instead of forcing them to learn all of those 4th string notes from scratch, all at once. Along the way you can start to introduce the idea of octaves and show them that they can also determine the note on the 4th string based on note on the 6th string two frets down. Basically teach them how to build a knowledge of the fretboard based on information that they already know, and keep building it up little-by-little.

I hope this is helpful.
-- Jim

 

[Robert]

Thanks Jim for the suggestion. I have been using a technique that works well, I think I posted this in another thread.

Ultimately, this all has to do with the student's motivation.

 

[justguitartalk]

Have you considered intervals?

A couple of my students are having problems learning the fretboard. I have covered CAGED and other methods and tips, but they seem stuck. I need to figure out how I can get them to have enough patience and discipline to just sit down and work slowly on it until they can figure out how to find the notes on the fretboard.

Most of my students have gotten the idea well about learning shapes on 1 and 2 strings at the time, and then building on that, learning intervals and arpeggios and so on. However, these 2 guys have a hard time progressing.

Any suggestions?

Hi Robert, Have you considered teaching them intervals instead. As teachers we know eventually that you need to be able to locate every note on the fretboard. I saw a video recently on Licklibrary http://www.licklibrary.com/?Aff=UXdUl4/yK4Q= where Mathew Van Doran has a series on fretboard mastery. Its a free video and is in two parts so its worth checking out. Might give you some ideas anyway.

Regards

Steve Webb
www.justguitartalk.com

 

[Robert]

Well, I do focus a lot on intervals with my students, but you can't do that and NOT focus on the fretboard - so I do both.

It is simply a must to know your way around your instrument if your intention is to become an advanced player, which of course not everyone may have as a goal, but in my case, one student is very serious about his accomplishments but not his practice regimen.

The situation for me has changed since I started this thread however, as I have been using an effective method to help students remember where the notes are on the fretboard.

Hi Robert, Have you considered teaching them intervals instead. As teachers we know eventually that you need to be able to locate every note on the fretboard. I saw a video recently on Licklibrary http://www.licklibrary.com/?Aff=UXdUl4/yK4Q= where Mathew Van Doran has a series on fretboard mastery. Its a free video and is in two parts so its worth checking out. Might give you some ideas anyway.

Regards

Steve Webb
www.justguitartalk.com

 

[kiteman]

Yeah, sure, but you can just listen to it and play them by ear. Just like when you hear a song, would you need to know notes to hum along with it, do you? You just know them not by their names but by their pitch. I hardly ever really look at the fretboard anyway when I play, so I don't really know if knowing the note places on it would help.

I've never tried to play along with notes...I don't understand those at all. But i do know the basic chords and can play a song with chord names marked. A few times I have read from tabs how does a certain song go, but usually, as a rule, I'm not interested in learning what others play or have played, although I like to _listen to them_ but with playing I'm only interested in making my own tunes and riffs. I suppose I've only ever in 20 or so years learned maybe a dozen riffs or so by other players...so I have never felt a need to learn 'em either.

Despite I don't read notation, they do help a LOT when I'm singing...I view it as a graphical display not much different from someone waving their hand 'go up' and 'go lower' etc. and they make it easier to sing.

On the guitar, I don't see the guitar neck as always going up however...hm, it's funny, I guess I just go by 'areas' which are interlapping, not thinking of the instrument as just one but six, and sometimes not horizontal but vertical - I guess scales if you like.

Sure, if I often needed to play something I didn't write myself, knowing those notes would be helpful indeed.

I'm with Deeaa on this. It's like kids growing up and learn to say things and know what they mean way before they learn to read and write. Learning guitar by ear makes a lot of sense in that respect. I had to learn theory to understand what's going on in music. After that I tend to leave theory alone now that my ears are accustomed to tones. Most of the time I don't know what I'm playing as I don't think about it but hear what sounds good. Theory can't touch that.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

Well, I do focus a lot on intervals with my students, but you can't do that and NOT focus on the fretboard - so I do both.

It is simply a must to know your way around your instrument if your intention is to become an advanced player, which of course not everyone may have as a goal, but in my case, one student is very serious about his accomplishments but not his practice regimen.

The situation for me has changed since I started this thread however, as I have been using an effective method to help students remember where the notes are on the fretboard.

Your new Dolphinstreet post seems to relate to this and combine fretboard knowledge with ear training. I like it!

 

[Robert]

Thanks Steve, my blog entry about this is on http://www.dolphinstreet.com/blog/fretboard-visualization.php
in case anyone wants to read it.

 

[Monkus]

I started to learn the fretboard by figuring out by ear where the octave notes were. So if I can find E on all strings then F would be one fret higher and so on. I did this because I wanted to learn the scales effectively. Now, a lot of it is muscle memory depending on the mood of the song. it has also helped me to develop different playing styles. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly but here goes...

I learned to play guitar by ear so I fall back on that a lot while understanding a little theory. For instance, soloing over Bm in the key of G does not necessarily have to sound sad, so I play what (to my ear) works. In order to do that I've found that knowing what notes I'm playing helps me form the solos better than when I was just playing by ear. Through experimentation, I learned the different modes and scales and sometimes remember that after I play it and understand why it works so well. Most of the time though, its more like a "Hey! that sounds cool...!" moment.

BTW the more beer consumed the more theory goes out the window.

YMMV :dude:

 

[kiteman]

I started to learn the fretboard by figuring out by ear where the octave notes were. So if I can find E on all strings then F would be one fret higher and so on. I did this because I wanted to learn the scales effectively. Now, a lot of it is muscle memory depending on the mood of the song. it has also helped me to develop different playing styles. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly but here goes...

I learned to play guitar by ear so I fall back on that a lot while understanding a little theory. For instance, soloing over Bm in the key of G does not necessarily have to sound sad, so I play what (to my ear) works. In order to do that I've found that knowing what notes I'm playing helps me form the solos better than when I was just playing by ear. Through experimentation, I learned the different modes and scales and sometimes remember that after I play it and understand why it works so well. Most of the time though, its more like a "Hey! that sounds cool...!" moment.



BTW the more beer consumed the more theory goes out the window.

YMMV :dude:

That's a good way of learning the fretboard. I did so by learning the octaves, the 3rds and the 5ths. There I was forming triads and by many experiments learning the shapes.

 

[otaypanky]

It may sound odd, but years ago I used to practice a lot in front of a mirror.
No, I wasn't working on perfecting my Yngwie pout !
I found it a totally different perspective seeing the fretboard image in the mirror. It was easier to see where to go and how I could play to the coming chord change without having to move far on the fretboard. It helped me indicate chord changes when playing single notes in a more natural and seemless way.
It will also help wean you off having to look at your fretboard while playing

 

[GuitarAcademy]

Hi Robert,

I don't know if this will help or not, but one technique I ran across (that worked really well with some beginners ) was to have the student memorize only the 6th string first, using the fret markers as the main guide posts. (i.e. test them on the names of notes at the 3rd, 5th, and 7th posistions first. Get those down, and them have them figure out where the other notes are relative to the ones they have memorized. (ie. C is 1/2 step above B, and F is whole step below G)

After they have that down and are able to cover most of the sixth string notes (even if it takes a few seconds for them to figure out where a note is), then have them memorize notes on the 5th string and 6th string together. In other words, make them memorize groupings of notes such as (C is the note on the 5th string just below G) and (D is the note on the 5th string just below A ), etc. Then assign a word or phrase to help them memorize these groupings. For example, you can use the word "Go Car" as a way to remember that G and C are adjacent to each other on the 6th/5th string 3rd fret. In a similar way you can use the word "After Dark" as a way to memorize that A and D are adjacent to each other on the 6th/5th sting on the 5th fret, "Big Elephant" can be used for B/E on the 7th fret, and so on. Use these fret marker places as a starting point to have them learn all the notes on the 6th/5th strings first, then work your way onto the other strings gradually.

Maybe this technique can help as a starting point? I find that most people can memorize the 6th/5th strings over a few weeks since they can put it to use in playing barre chord progression when they know where all the root notes are.

Once they have the 6th/5th strings down, then you can move to the 4th string, and use the same technique of memorizing these notes relative to the notes on the 5th string that they already know, instead of forcing them to learn all of those 4th string notes from scratch, all at once. Along the way you can start to introduce the idea of octaves and show them that they can also determine the note on the 4th string based on note on the 6th string two frets down. Basically teach them how to build a knowledge of the fretboard based on information that they already know, and keep building it up little-by-little.

I hope this is helpful.
-- Jim

I recently took on a student who used these mnemonics the way you mentioned, and what I found, is I had to re-teach him, because he couldn't find one without the other. I teach the whole fretboard in 4 to 6 lessons, and have for years, but it was especially difficult with this student. Not because he was wrong, but because he was mostly "right", but the thing is, that he needed for example to find C on the 5th he had to recount through G on the 6th. Go Car, or whatever it was. But if I needed him to find say, a note or identify it in half a second, he was unable to. After we reworked the fretboard and he was hitting any string and any fret upon command, he remarked, "The problem with using that system, was, you had to rely upon that system". It was hard to tell the guy "You're wrong" because he really wasn't, but functionally that system didn't help him in the heat of battle.

So one day, when I teach him to instantly name any triad, and later any chord, he'll be able to put that fretboard knowledge to good use, faster, say for example finding an A7b9, he can simply say to himself, "A C# E G Bb", and play those notes on the fretboard, as they are accessible to him.

I can only imagine how it would have gone had he had to use his mnemonic system to do this!

(images of tangled fingers in strings and crossed eyes come to mind!)

GA

 

[Fingerhurting]

Were to put it

Boo :rockya
is it easier to count the fingers then string or fret finger string
lol:thwap Hope you see what i mean lol.

 

[LeadedEL84]

It may sound odd, but years ago I used to practice a lot in front of a mirror.
No, I wasn't working on perfecting my Yngwie pout !
I found it a totally different perspective seeing the fretboard image in the mirror. It was easier to see where to go and how I could play to the coming chord change without having to move far on the fretboard. It helped me indicate chord changes when playing single notes in a more natural and seemless way.
It will also help wean you off having to look at your fretboard while playing

Man, I am thrilled you brought up mirror practice. I was thinking of starting a thread about the issue sometime. I still might at some point. I have many ideas and observations about this technique. I don't want to go into all that here and hi-jack the thread. I have had great success with it. I discovered it by accident. I used to sit alot while I practiced,looking down at the fretboard. I found that when I went out to jam with others in a full band situation I had trouble standing and playing as well as I did at home in my seated practice position. So I started practicing more at home in a standing position so it would not feel as uncomfortable. I had a dresser with mirror so when I stood up to play at home I started watching my fret hand in the mirror. It helped me improve my standing posture so I wasn't bent over the fretboard anymore and I got comfortable playing with my head up. There were alot of unintented consequences and benifits I discovered from it. For those like me who are visual thinkers/visual learners this practice technique can have a big impact on muscle memory and performance. Did wonders for me learning the scale shapes all over the neck. There is also some theory out there that applies to this concerning reverse images, motor skills ,and brain hemispheres.
It works for me.
Hijack aborted:notme :nono:

 

[GreenAsJade]

Appologies if this was suggested before, I didn't see it: one excellent method of learning the fretboard is reading music.

IMHO it is by far the best because it is actually doing music while you are learning, and it is giving you a extra skill that a well rounded musician could do with as well!

Instead of feeling "groan I have to do more fretboard learning" you get to feel "OK, now it's time to work on that wonderful Bach piece for a while".

GaJ

 

[deeaa]

the only problem being reading music is ten times more difficult than learning the fretboard... I speak four languages and don't consider myself dumb by any standars, but I've tried learning notes twice and it'd be easier to speak in binary code it seems to me...I just don't get it why is it made so awkwardly. Merely trying to pinpoint on which line a given dot is is damned hard because they don't have any numbers etc. Need a pencil to point at lines and count them, then check whic note it is at which line. Qhy can't it just be numbers or something I just don't get it. Not to even mwntion those sharp etc. markers...or they could assign notes hexadecimal codes and you could read them just in linear fashion, or anything.

 

[Eric]

the only problem being reading music is ten times more difficult than learning the fretboard... I speak four languages and don't consider myself dumb by any standars, but I've tried learning notes twice and it'd be easier to speak in binary code it seems to me...I just don't get it why is it made so awkwardly. Merely trying to pinpoint on which line a given dot is is damned hard because they don't have any numbers etc. Need a pencil to point at lines and count them, then check whic note it is at which line. Qhy can't it just be numbers or something I just don't get it. Not to even mwntion those sharp etc. markers...or they could assign notes hexadecimal codes and you could read them just in linear fashion, or anything.

I really think it's just a learned skill. It's the sort of thing where if you are already proficient in something (e.g. guitar), it will be much more difficult to take on something like reading music on a clef, because you have to learn it slowly. However, I'd say that if you do it enough, your proficiency will eventually improve significantly. It's mostly a question of whether it's worth it. For your everyday guitar player, the answer IMO is no.

I say this because when I was playing the tuba in high school, I was actually pretty good at reading from the bass clef, even with sightreading. These days, even if I could remember how to play the tuba, it would probably take me 2-3 minutes to get through a single measure.

But ultimately, it's just a system that your brain has to get used to. It has its purpose, and most of the conventions make sense at some level. Just my two cents.

 

[deeaa]

It is a mental block thing...like a rebellious aversion...'I don't need this to play, man, I could have devised a better system myself, now which damn line is that dot anyway, where are my glasses...'..even if rationally I'd like to learn, in my heart I think I feel like it's somehow unfair to me to have to learn it, I guess.

 

[sumitomo]

@Eric,I couldn't resist this when I heard you played the tuba,I have a Robin Williams tape and in one of his jokes(that guy cracks me up!)He was talking about getting drunk in high school where he went to a football game and the party after,the next morning some one confronted him and his answer was "I took a dump in your Tuba?You said sit in with the band? LOL! Sumi

 

[Eric]

It is a mental block thing...like a rebellious aversion...'I don't need this to play, man, I could have devised a better system myself, now which damn line is that dot anyway, where are my glasses...'..even if rationally I'd like to learn, in my heart I think I feel like it's somehow unfair to me to have to learn it, I guess.

Yeah, I get you. For me, it's just diminishing returns -- it would take a good bit of time, and that time could be spent on much more useful things. If I bother to try to learn to read sheet/clef music, I just think about how not useful it is while I'm trying to figure it out, kind of like you. I guess I've never found much of a rhythm for it.

 

[Eric]

@Eric,I couldn't resist this when I heard you played the tuba,I have a Robin Williams tape and in one of his jokes(that guy cracks me up!)He was talking about getting drunk in high school where he went to a football game and the party after,the next morning some one confronted him and his answer was "I took a dump in your Tuba?You said sit in with the band? LOL! Sumi

Nice. Luckily, that never happened to me. Man, tubas are fricking expensive. To get a nice one, it's anywhere from 4-6k! No wonder I quit and never actually owned one.

 

[GreenAsJade]

I can see that if you can't already read music, then trying to do so just to learn the fretboard would seem inefficient.

So, if you have someone who already can read music, then I strongly recommend it as a way to learn the fretboard.

If you have someone who can't already read music, I'd tend to recommend that you learn, though it's obviously not mandatory especially for rock guitar. It's not that hard though ... I disagree that it's harder than learning the fretboard. At least with music notation there is only one place for each note. Learning music notation will bring with it not only notes, but also rythym. Valuable. Whether it's worth it, is a personal question. I think it will make you a better rounded musician and more versatile ... but whether you'd do it just to learn the fretboard... maybe not.

GaJ

 

[deeaa]

I guess it's also that I strongly feel when music gets more and more complicated, or more 'designed' and theoretically thought out, it's soul and appeal (to me obviously) diminishes in the same degree most of the time.

This doesn't appeal to classical orchestra music, actually almost quite contrary, but jazz and progressive rock etc. as well. I was in a music nightschool for a few years and sang in their band (tried to sit the lectures to learn notes but never did) and I learned to dislike jazz and such there. Possibly that transfers to notation as well - perhaps, if I learn too much about music, I'd end up making crappy music by my standards I don't want to know the names and notes of the chords I play, because a large part of the enjoyment of making music and songs is coming up with all kinds of things all the time, new chords and such, all by yourself. Don't need to know what they are or learn them from someone else, it's much more interesting this way IMO. Sometimes I check the chords I've come up with for a song with a finder applet for a buddy who needs to play it, and they're very strange I guess sometimes, like "F#7flat 5-9 (no 3)" etc. but that's the fun of it! Much easier usually just explain it in words instead of names and notes. And then finding the lead notes for it just by ear is also great fun.

 

[GreenAsJade]

I don't want to know the names and notes of the chords I play

... then what are you doing in a thread about "how do I learn the fretboard" :nono: :socool:

GaJ

 

[deeaa]

Heh, yeah, touché...well I do need to know where to play on the fretboard approximately, i.e. if I see the other guy plays in G or F or whatever, I need to know where to start playing leads over it. That certainly helps. So that much I do know where is what on the fretboard...but it's quite enough for me. Need the starting point, but from there it's by the ear strictly.