In the end, 36w doesn't cut it?

[deeaa]

I love my 36w Ceriatine and am in my personal tonal bliss with it most of the way. But. Of late I have come to a conclusion it just doesn't have the wattage fo big cut-thru-the-band solos.

Imean, it's plenty loud an amp but when the time comes to throw a big rocking solo over the band going at 100% you can't get it any louder still -not without the sound getting too buzzy and having this ugly overtone. You can only crank it up to a point, after which the amp starts to sound overloaded and screechy. I guess for most it would be enough but we play LOUD. AND I'd like the solos to be like 40db over the rhythm levels.

So I wonder if the only way to really get solos thru would be to have a bigger amp...or maybe use another head for just solos. That'd be awesome, have a JCM800 or a 2203 just for a solo head and use the ceria for all else ;-)

 

[Eric]

Personally, if a 36w all-tube amp doesn't cut it due to band volume, I'd be pretty worried about my hearing.

I can't really speak to any other part of it, but it seems like most people say that you don't need more than 20-30w for band use. FWIW, I never turn my 60w SS much past halfway, and even that's in what I would consider a too-loud band/jam environment.

I'm curious to know what you decide with this.

 

[deeaa]

Ayh, even in 18w mode it is certainly loud enough for most band use...but still, I want it to cut thru the band more in some leads.

I could not imagine playing without proper ear protection in any case...it does get bloody loud. The drummer can play pretty quietly too, but when he really gets into feeling, he smacks them so hard he sometimes kicks right thru the skin...seen him break many a skin when he gets that way. I have 100w vocal pa only and believe me I sing loud but I can hear next to nothing of vocals too.

 

[Radioboy950]

What's your speaker/cab setup with that 36 watter?

 

[hubberjub]

At 36 watts, you're one more than my most powerful amp (not including my Tech 21 Power Engine). I play with a very loud drummer and have never had any problem with on stage volume even when I'm just playing through my 20 watt Soldano. You guys are miking amps on stage, right? That has been the biggest improvement in sound for our band. Especially if you are using pedals for your overdrive (though I seem to remember you used an attenuator as well).

 

[otaypanky]

Is it at gigs or at practice?
Is it you or an audience that thinks you are not loud enough?
If it's at a gig and it's you that thinks you're not loud enough, is it from the perspective of standing near the amp or out in front?
In my experience it's often because an amp is turned up too loud that it can't be heard in a mix. There is a point at which the clarity is lost and then it tends to become indistinguishable and just adds to the overall noise.
It could also be that the EQ of the amp needs to be adjusted.
The best tone for home or practice or just playing by yourself may not be the best tone for cutting through a mix of other instruments and vocals.

 

[Bloozcat]

What's your speaker/cab setup with that 36 watter?

That was the first question I had as well.

Another suggestion would be a plexiglass drum shield. There are three possible benefits to this: 1)The drum sound would be deflected away from the rest of the band members while still reaching the audience. 2) The sound would be deflected from the vocal stage mic's. 3) The drummer would be able to hear himself better (and possible tone it down as a result).

When everyone else in the band has to compete with a loud drummer to be heard it creates an escalating battle. You can't hear yourself because the drummer is too loud. The bass player can't hear himself because the drummer and you are too loud. The rhythm player and/or keyboard player can't hear himself because the drummer, you, and the bass player are too loud. And then there's the problem of not being able to hear the vocals because of not only the volume of everyone else's playing, but because some of that volume is also being picked up by the stage mic's. It's a vicious cycle if you let it get out of hand.

Loud drummers are the bane of many a band...

 

[ZMAN]

DSL100, and use your guitars volume control. Very, Very versatile amp.
Lovely clean tones, then hit the red channel. I use mine at home. Fairly easy to come by.
Oh and in case you think that 100 watts is overkill. The 100 is only 3db louder than the 50, and it is there if you need it.

 

[marnold]

Crank your mids! That's where all your "cut" is going to come from.

 

[deeaa]

It's a 4x12" with two greenbacks /G12M and two G12L's.

And it's mostly band practice, though occasional gigs.
The other guy plays a 120W Line 6 and it's plenty loud too.

I like the band loud, and by and large I'm happy how we hear each other, of course earplugs on and all - well vox are way too low but can't be helped with those lousy tiny PA speakers.

If the other guy would drop his volume significantly come my lead...and he does, in all fairness, some, but anyway...

I suppose it's not so much a question of power per se but usable headroom.

My sound is built on slight overdrives cascading; I drive the input pretty hard with EMG85 and such...and then the power amp also gets pretty OD's at these volumes (my amp is circa half volume always). Over that it's just some Jackhammer OD at circa 1/5th drive setting.

So...probably there could be more db's there to be had, but the problem is more like if I crank it up even more, it just starts to sound ugly, too driven, gets these over-the top harmonics not unlike those in my last amplitube post.

In a word, when I crank it up even more and play a lead, it's quickly starting to sound more and more like the buddy's Line 6. All the depth and warmth and punch is replaced with this more screeching buzzy overtone.

I've not entirely given up on trying though...I'll try using a tube OD pedal for the 'loud' lead sound before I throw in the towel.

But, I do fear that I would need a bigger powered amph to really get proper big leads real loud. Something like the 2203 50W I had (which was way too noisy though), or even the 2010 100W...well that was too loud really.

But I don't seem to like most any modern Marshalls sound, except I do believe I could get what I want with a JMV and all it's controls.

It's pretty hard to achieve the sound of a cranked all-tube EL84 amp with much anything else than just that.

 

[deeaa]

Crank your mids! That's where all your "cut" is going to come from.

Very true, but my sound already is pretty much nothing but mids...very hard to boost 'em any harder.

Well you can hear quite closely how it sounds here< posted this a while back already:

 

[deeaa]

I dunno why the embed code doesn't work no more on Youtube,,,

 

[sumitomo]

Zman nailed it,Marshall!!!! Crank it UP!!! Sumi

 

[deeaa]

Yeah Marshalls sure are loud but they don't really sound quite like ceriatone does...and marshall's ptp heads cost an arm and a leg anyways...

 

[marnold]

They still work, you're just adding too much stuff in between the tags:

 

[deeaa]

I wonder how it is supposed to be done these days...I just get the 'embed code' from youtube for the vid and paste between the YOUTUBE tags provided...I guess some of them are too much, I'll check what you removed.

Well anyway, as of now I pulled the trigger on this tube overdrive pedal, and I'll be testing how does that work for thicker and/or more cutting leads...I have this idea I could maybe run that into the clean channel and leave that much louder (the ceria has effectively two channels via different inputs I can choose between with the C.Martin switcher...so maybe I can get it louder for leads still.

 

[Eric]

I wonder how it is supposed to be done these days...I just get the 'embed code' from youtube for the vid and paste between the YOUTUBE tags provided...I guess some of them are too much, I'll check what you removed.

Well, take this example:

Here's the URL for the video (found from address bar or the 'share' menu):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEbEMjKitA4

Here's the embed code for the video:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kEbEMjKitA4?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kEbEMjKitA4?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Here's what you should enter in the YOUTUBE tags: kEbEMjKitA4

Notice how it's just the portion after the equals sign in the URL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEbEMjKitA4)?

Demonstrated:



That's the trick: don't include the whole URL -- only put in the little code after the =. Hopefully that helps.

 

[Eric]

Well anyway, as of now I pulled the trigger on this tube overdrive pedal, and I'll be testing how does that work for thicker and/or more cutting leads...I have this idea I could maybe run that into the clean channel and leave that much louder (the ceria has effectively two channels via different inputs I can choose between with the C.Martin switcher...so maybe I can get it louder for leads still.

What pedal did you get?

 

[deeaa]

Since I had such good experience I got another Biyang...O something-100, OT-100, OD-100 or something. Anyway with a tube and a dedicated power supply for the unit. Will receive it on monday, and very intrested in how it works. At least it has tone controls and maybe it will offer me a chance to test a bunch of my preamp tubes. It was only 40 euros so even if it won't work so well not a big loss.

If it works well it'll replace my Vox Distortion Booster pedal, which is great but too noisy and has no EQ. I'll retire it for home use - it's one of those pedals that work best to liven up an SS amp sound, sounds amazing in front of the VT30.

And muchos gracias for the explanation on the embed code...I had completely missed the boat on how it works these days. Simpler this way!

 

[Moander]

I can tell you what your problem is.

You're entirely too hot. All that juice, at low volumes, sounds great, but at higher volumes, it turns to mud.

I don't care what gear you use, I can totally screw up anyones sound with a simple turn of a dial.

Based on your video, you play blues/rock based stuff. That early 'clean' sound you had in the beginning was actually a 70's crunch sound if you had humbuckers.

In a live situation, to not have your punch and cut through turn into mud, and sound like processed cheese, you need alot less gain. I can hear it in the first 30 seconds of the video, you're so on the edge of feedback as it is.

I use a 2x12 combo, with a Boss GT-6, and a separate Wah. My last jam was with a kit-destroying John Bonham wannabe, full band scenario.

My little rig cut through in surgical style. Took me years to drop that overkill of gain from my live sound.

 

[deeaa]

I hear you, and totally agree...on the vid I have the amp on clean at first and its still sounding driven. It does not, however, sound driven at all live, especially compared to the other guy's line 6. In fact it has so little drive it is almost painful to play leads, the sound just doesn't carry much as there is no saturation, just pure gain. It will feedback and all but still you must play full chords to sound driven. But that's the way I like it. Usually guys who play my rig soon ask for some distortion and say they can't play with a rig so clean, but when you record it, it sounds quite driven anyway. Live, nope, recorded, yeah indeed.

That is if you record at a distance, like here...if you put a 57 right at the speaker, it sounds at most as gainy as old acdc.

But youre right the problem is too much gain anyway; there just is no headroom left in the amp...all the gain stages cascade to overdriven power tubes and it just starts to overload.

Of course I can drop the gain lower but then it also gets much quieter...if I drop the vol to say 1/3 colume it's pretty clean like any bluesbreaker amp that it basically is, and enough loud for band too easily, but to get it to naturally overdrive and get a little louder rockband sound I play it at half volume, and by then the power tubes already break up sweetly. I .ove the way it sounds. But then there is nowhere to go any more; I've tried boost, od, anything, but 36w just doesn't give the headroom, them power tubes are screaming as loud as they can already and can yield no more punch.

 

[Radioboy950]

Jump up to a 50 watter with 6L6GCs, graded for medium to later "breakup, and you will have some great headroom to deal with. :thumbsup

Seriously, have you tried 6L6s? They're a great tube for a variety of styles.

My favorite valves.

 

[deeaa]

Jump up to a 50 watter with 6L6GCs, graded for medium to later "breakup, and you will have some great headroom to deal with. :thumbsup

Seriously, have you tried 6L6s? They're a great tube for a variety of styles.

My favorite valves.

Yeah, I've had a few Twins and a DeVille, but I can't get that Marshall bite and midrange from them. Too much low and high end, not enough power tube crunch.

 

[oldguy]

Yeah, I've had a few Twins and a DeVille, but I can't get that Marshall bite and midrange from them. Too much low and high end, not enough power tube crunch.

Save up enough $$$ and have Nik build you a hand-wired JCM-800 clone, Deeaa............. you'll have the sound you want in a point to point head at a reasonable price. We both know Nik does good work, right?:dude

 

[sumitomo]

Come on deeaa you know you gotta have one!! ^^^^^ Sumi

 

[deeaa]

Sure is tempting...maybe some day in the future....

 

[deeaa]

Third thread I post this but now I have the new Biyang set for solos only. I can't get a much louder sound using it, there just isn't any more headroom however I play it, but it cuts thru OK I guess. Not perfect volumewise but can't be helped really. At least the sound is just how I like it:

 

[gorkblok]

hmmm.

Ever mic your amp through a PA?

 

[Eric]

So...is the lesson here that you might need more power in your amp not for volume purposes, but for added headroom?