Is tone over-rated?

[Moshe]

Sometimes I think so.


Here is my arguement. Tone is simply the "color" of your music.

I was a painting contractor with my brother-in-law for 4 years. We would paint only interiors of upscale homes and generally charge 2-3 times what most painters would charge. My brother-in-law was such a good salesman and we were both good painters so we always had plenty of work. We would spend DAYS on prep work. And every cut-in paint line was perfectly straight. We used oil on the trim so it was smooth like glass. etc...

But every, every, every time the customer's neighbor or friend or relative came over to check things out they ALL said the same thing...."OOOH, I love that color." But Dave and I knew what they really liked was how well we prepped and painted.

I think a similar thing happens with music. People here a good performance and the think it was the TONE that they like, when it really was the playing.

I remember attending a jazz festival at Fredonia State University in New York where they had clinics. One instructer was demonstating proper jazz soloing technique and he was AWESOME. He then opened it up for questions...The first question. "What kind of mouthpiece are you using?". The instructor replied "That's a stupid question". and moved on. We were all like "Why??Why?? why is it a stupid question?? We need to know!" amongst ourselves. But really it was.

With all that being said, I still can't wait for my ALLEN ACCOMPLICE AMP TO GET HERE! so I'll have better tone.

 

[Plank_Spanker]

The funny part of the entire "tone" discussion is that we, the players, are the only ones who obsess over it. The average listener could care less about it. I don't think I've ever left a concert hearing "Man, his mids were overly compressed and boxy. If only he had a Dumble".

 

[marnold]

It can get extremely weird, I'll grant you that. Having said that, I really didn't like the sound I was getting from my little Peavey Blazer. I couldn't get a clean tone out of it to save my life (no matter what I tried, it would overdrive at least a bit). I wasn't terribly impressed with the dirty tone either, but it did have some Blues possibilities. I've heard that a speaker replacement would do wonders, but I didn't really want to put more money into a cheap amp.

My Vox is about ten gagillion times better. I can get multiple tones out of it that I really like and that motivates/inspires me to play. Granted, I'm talking about the difference between a REALLY cheap amp and one that is only just plain cheap. I'm not really comparing a modified Marshall to a Dumble or something.

Artists are going to obsess over their art far more than "normal" people would. It doesn't surprise me at all that some guitarists are continuously changing pickups, guitars, amps, effects, etc., in search of that elusive "tone" that probably is only in their head. Once that tone is achieved, they will probably have a different tone they are searching for.

One thing I have learned is that trying to get the exact same tone with the exact same equipment as my heroes is an exercise in futility--mainly because I can't afford it, nor do I need a Marshall stack in my office. I've talked elsewhere about trying to nail a George Lynch or Stevie Ray Vaughan tone and I can get somewhat close, but their tones are moving targets. Plus, since I don't have their hands and heads, I can't truly be them. Trying to emulate them is just another step in trying to find me.

 

[Spudman]

I'm not sure exactly who is going around RATING tone but,

I equate tone to the sound emanating from speakers within the context we are talking about. That being said I would prefer to hear pleasant tones. Meaning sounds that do not grate on my sense of well being. I think we look for that as players.

Now if I were to walk into a live music situation and the band who was playing so masterfully had their PA system eq'd so that all frequencies other than the 2-4k range were completely cut from the mains then I would have that sense of well being extremely challenged and would most likely miss a good performance because the "tone" was awful.

So I don't think rating per say is the real issue. It's just that we are on this quest to find tones that are pleasant to our ears and minds. And I totally despise a crappy tone. Anyone who would settle for a crappy tone has issues. A hearing issue is the most obvious and another could be lack of will or knowledge to try for something more pleasant.

So tone is not over rated if you ask me it is simply the natural way that most of us would like to be heard. You can reach more ears if you don't challenge that sense of well being in others, but instead provide comfort in the medium in which you wish to convey your message.

Tone - not over rated, just useful.

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Is tone overrated? God I hope not.

Plank made a good statement about the majority of our listeners not really caring or even knowing what to care about when listening to us. Most people nod their head up and down to the beat and tell us "yeah that sounds pretty good".

When you did all that prep work before you painted and received payment I'm pretty sure you were proud of what you did. If your customers are happy then hopefully you are. I think you were. In that respect "tone" is very important. It's what drives us to be better. To be appreciated. I believe tone is most important to those that really pay attention to detail. Having said that I also believe that playing is about 50% of what we are. 50% playing...50% tone. Both should help us become better playing and sounding musicians and should make us proud of what we accomplish and aspire to do.

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

I
So I don't think rating per say is the real issue. It's just that we are on this quest to find tones that are pleasant to our ears and minds. And I totally despise a crappy tone. Anyone who would settle for a crappy tone has issues. A hearing issue is the most obvious and another could be lack of will or knowledge to try for something more pleasant.

Tone - not over rated, just useful.

Nice description. If I don't like the tone coming out of my gear then I'm spending all my time twiddling knobs, & adjusting pup heights, & whatnot.

It's the tone that rings them bells and makes you feel like there are angels coming out of your amp.

If the tone is there, it pulls you along to play longer, practice harder, & grin from ear to ear with enjoyment. Murmering to yerself...Man, that is sooo sweet!

The elusive quest for the holy tone is another thing altogether. It's hard to live if the perfect tone is always residing in somebody else's gear.

 

[Moshe]

I'm not sure exactly who is going around RATING tone but,

I equate tone to the sound emanating from speakers within the context we are talking about. That being said I would prefer to hear pleasant tones. Meaning sounds that do not grate on my sense of well being. I think we look for that as players.

Now if I were to walk into a live music situation and the band who was playing so masterfully had their PA system eq'd so that all frequencies other than the 2-4k range were completely cut from the mains then I would have that sense of well being extremely challenged and would most likely miss a good performance because the "tone" was awful.

So I don't think rating per say is the real issue. It's just that we are on this quest to find tones that are pleasant to our ears and minds. And I totally despise a crappy tone. Anyone who would settle for a crappy tone has issues. A hearing issue is the most obvious and another could be lack of will or knowledge to try for something more pleasant.

So tone is not over rated if you ask me it is simply the natural way that most of us would like to be heard. You can reach more ears if you don't challenge that sense of well being in others, but instead provide comfort in the medium in which you wish to convey your message.

Tone - not over rated, just useful.

Great response spudman. The only thing I disagree with is that I believe it's OK to challenge peoples sense of well being as long as you resolve things musically in the end. But grating bad tone is definately hard to resolve. I would like to play music that challenges people as well as comforts them. That is my desire anyway, I don't know if I can do it or not.

 

[6STRINGS 9LIVES]

Dont know how I missed this one, but it cant go unchallenged.
Tone overrated ..Tone is what seperates the greats from the wanna bees, tone is what makes the hair stand up on your arms, tone is essential element in all great recordings and performances . If tone was not essential then all the pros would be playing 99 dollar guitars through 99 dollar amps..get a grip ..dont make the mistake of confusing great playing with great tone , great playing can impress regardless , but great tone , i mean real honest to god great tone is unmistakeable and unforgetable . If you have never been in its presence then i can understand an inability to recognize it , but one would have to be deaf not to be able to define the difference between SRV'S sound and that of a player playing on cheap gear or Jimmy Page's 59 les paul through a early marshall from a les paul clone through a modler ..tone is like a personal signature for a player , its what defines and establishes his sound ..
I have been at countles gigs where great sound has been complimented and dissed , audiences recognize it you dont have to be a player to have it move you , I have mixed plenty of performances and have had the opportunity to hear the comments of audience members around a console, to think that its not appreciated is just plain stupid and a disservice to the people you play for .Never mind challenging peoples sense of well being , or resolving things musically , just deliver the goods and make them tap their toes , People seem to be lost in the mirrors of marketing , the reality is a 51 squire and a 300 dollar amp anint gonna get you great tone it dont even get you good tone , it just gets you a sound and there is a world of difference between tone and sound. Its like the difference between driving a Porsche and Hyundai..yeah both will get you down the road but there is a difference , but if you have never driven a Porsche its unfair to crap on it because you drive a Hyundai.
This relates to the whole gear snobbery thread that was actice a few weeks ago . I avoided posting to that thread , though I was tempted , personally I was disapointed by some of the posts , we greet new members with claims of this being a "friendly forum " but people were taking shots at people because of their opinions regarding their choice of gear , so much so I fear it cost the forum the participation of, in my opinion ,the best writer/poster we have , who has not shown up here since his opinions were disparaged regarding his personal taste in gear , REAL FRIENDLY ..everyone is entitled to their opinions whether you share them or not is a matter of choice , but I think we owe it to ourselves to be openminded and respectful . This forum should embrace varying points of view and respectfully allow all posters the opportunity to participate on an even playing field regardless of their playing ability or experience . respectfully 6S9L

 

[Robert]

Is Tone over-rated? I think Tone is a real nice guy and I rate him high. just joking.

No, I don't think tone is over-rated. I always look for good tone, since it's so hard to come by. If I could afford to buy the real high-end amps, I would, because they sound better than cheap amps. Same with guitars.

All this is very individual of course, but in general I think it's like with anything else - you get what you pay for.

As always - be nice in your discussions. Everyone's opinion matters here.

 

[Spudman]

the reality is a 51 squire and a 300 dollar amp anint gonna get you great tone it dont even get you good tone , it just gets you a sound and there is a world of difference between tone and sound. Its like the difference between driving a Porsche and Hyundai..yeah both will get you down the road but there is a difference , but if you have never driven a Porsche its unfair to crap on it because you drive a Hyundai.

So are you saying that you have to spend a lot of money to have good tone?
I don't buy that if that is what you are intending to say.

I too have engineered some of the all time greats of rock and roll and I can definitely say that money does not buy you tone. I have played with players using a $2000 PRS and a very expensive amp and they sounded like poop. I've also engineered players with Bad Cat amps and American Strats and they too sounded like poop. Conversely, Robert seems to have very good tone coming from his $99 Squier 51 and inexpensive Vox amp. I also have had people come out of the audience and tell me that my $180 guitar through my $350 amp was one of the best sounding live guitars that they had heard. I've also engineered pro bluesmen using cheap solid state Peavey amps and they had great tone and had the crowd up on their feet.

So is this what you are saying? That you can't have great tone without a vintage guitar and expensive amp?

The Gear snob thread is a joke! It's a joke.

 

[Myles]

Performance = Gear + Player's Ability

Average Gear + Great Player can make a Good Performance.
Great Gear + Average Player can make a Good Performance.

But its going to take both Great gear and a Great player in order to truly hit the top.

That being said, with a good enough sound system, a Hendrix CD, and the ability to hit the play button. I'm going to blow all of you away

 

[Spudman]

Performance = Gear + Player's Ability

Average Gear + Great Player can make a Good Performance.
Great Gear + Average Player can make a Good Performance.

But its going to take both Great gear and a Great player in order to truly hit the top.

That being said, with a good enough sound system, a Hendrix CD, and the ability to hit the play button. I'm going to blow all of you away

Dude. You rock!R You can play Hendrix and do math (bowing respectfully).

 

[Plank_Spanker]

The only people that fret tone are the players, and I am not immune to that, either. We always talk about made man "X's" tone and how much we like or hate it............................but try as you might, you'll never sound like him, even with his exact rig. It comes as much from the player as it does from the rig.

"Good tone" is what makes us happy, but is a very subjective thing to quantify. The quest for good tone keeps the equipment makers in business.

I'm lucky. I scored big in the tone department, and I smile every time I plug in.

 

[duhvoodooman]

Wow, that's spooky Vitamyles, 'cuz I was just about to post a "formula" for great guitar music, too, but I had a third component:

Great Playing + Great Tone + Great Material = Great Music

No doubt, we guitarists tend to obsess over tone. Sometimes we may pay a bit too much attention to it, but I wouldn't say it's overrated, per se.

Of the three, the toughest to achieve for most of us is the playing. Great material is the easy part, thanks to the many talented artists & songwriters who have provided it over the years. Great tone falls in between, in my view. There is skill and knowledge involved in achieving it, certainly--we've all heard players with primo equipment who sounded like crap. But it helps to have great hardware, for sure. I won't buy the statement that "a 51 squire and a 300 dollar amp anint gonna get you great tone it dont even get you good tone , it just gets you a sound", because I've heard what Robert can do with exactly that kind of rig. But on the other hand, I wonder what a player of his caliber could do with an Eric Johnson Strat and a '65 Twin! Scary thought!

For the most part, I stayed out of that "gear snob" thread, too. The whole discussion just seems kind of silly, since it's s-o-o-o subjective and tied to your financial means & life priorities. At the age of 55 and having worked in good-paying technical jobs all my life, the Good Lord above has blessed me with the financial means to go out and buy pretty much any guitar I would want. But I ain't gonna do it, because (1) my skill level isn't commensurate with a super-premium axe, and (2) I'll be putting two kids through college over the next eight years! So what I have suits me well, and I'll stick with that. Or maybe another inexpensive guitar or two, at the most!

Bottom-line, we all make our own choices for our own reasons, good or bad. Just don't rub my nose in mine, because you chose differently.

P.S. I'm gonna have to skip the Porsche, too!

 

[Myles]

Great Playing + Great Tone + Great Material = Great Music

Good call! Material definitely has to be in there, but so does gear... (although perhaps playing is where you implied this...)

My revised formula:
Music = Gear + Talent + Material

Being extremely gifted in one of these areas can often compensate for another, but ultimately it takes a gift in all three to hit one's premium. Perhaps, that is what the pursuit of gear for many is all about. Once we've got what we feel is our best material, we are at our most talented, then all that is left is to get the best gear to make our masterpiece!

Another important formula to understand though:
Expensive does not equal Good.

All things considered likely ones priority should be:
1. Talent (improving)
2. Material (writing songs.. or borrowing )
3. Gear (buying)

 

[marnold]

People seem to be lost in the mirrors of marketing , the reality is a 51 squire and a 300 dollar amp anint gonna get you great tone it dont even get you good tone , it just gets you a sound and there is a world of difference between tone and sound. Its like the difference between driving a Porsche and Hyundai..yeah both will get you down the road but there is a difference , but if you have never driven a Porsche its unfair to crap on it because you drive a Hyundai.

I guess this begs the question then. What is someone like me to do? Is it possible to get anything worth listening to from equipment that most normal folks can afford and/or justify the expense of?

I know I shouldn't feel this way, and I'm guessing that you didn't mean it this way, 6S9L, but this post really bummed me out. I feel like I've been wasting my time.

 

[Robert]

Marnold, don't get bummed out. I think I can get pretty good tone out my '51 and 300 dollar amp, does anyone else think so? If can, so can anyone else. I would think it is more valuable for a guitarist to spend time developing playing skills than thinking about how much they should spend on their equipment.

Hey, I think I even have a bit of "status" as a decent player who uses super cheap gear! I don't mind that. I don't care, as long as I am happy with what I've got. I could be happier with some super sweet expensive gear, but I'm pretty close to where I want to be sound wise, so I'm not complaining. I can't afford that kind of gear yet anyhow. Some day though, I might get more high end stuff, but it'll take some time before I get there.

Hope this makes sense. I would never complain about anyone who uses nice, expensive gear. Good for them - I wish I had all the "bling bling" equipment too.

 

[oldguy]

This is just my personal opinion, and is in no way meant to offend anyone, as each person has their own idea of what good tone is.
I really liked EVH's tone on the earlier albums,.. later...not so much. The playing was still incredible, I just preferred the brown sound. Eddie also took parts and built guitars the way he wanted them, and it worked for him.
I have personally heard a twin Valve Jr. rig run in stereo that sounded incredible (the class A chinese built 100$ amp has tone to me, I truly hear a good sound from it).
Robert gets an incredible tone from his equipment. It sounds great to me, and sounds better through headphones than through my PC's speakers.
I have heard sound clips of modelers on this board (most notably SuperSwede's), that rival some of the best sounds of very expensive rigs, to my ears, at least. (Don't mean to leave other good players out, but Swede seems to have the modeling sound down to an art.)
I have thought for years that Frank Marino was one of the best blues/rock guitarists I've ever heard. On the website dedicated to him, he stated that he uses solid state amps he builds himself, and won't endorse any particular brand of tube amp, although he likes many of them, he found long ago they were not dependable with the rigors of touring.
If I were able to buy a '59 Les Paul and an original Marshall Plexi, I wouldn't play any better than I do now. I need to practice and refine my skills.
Something else to consider: You could buy 50 of each, and might find 1, or 10,20, etc....that had that certain sound.
And if someone has the finances to invest in their holy grail of tone, I applaud them. Whether it's $500 or $50,000. Don't matter to me.
Just please don't look down your nose at my choices, at least until you listen, really listen, to what I'm playing.
Then give me the critique. I'm a big boy, I can deal w/ it. If I don't agree with you, that's OK. We can all agree to disagree. That's what makes the world go 'round. Diversity. I like country music, but I often play blues or rock.
And the gear snob thing, it was just a goof. I never really burnt all that stuff in my wood stove, I just burn regular curly or quilted maple.
Peace, my friends.

 

[6STRINGS 9LIVES]

hey Marnold sorry to bum you out , time spent playing is never time wasted as long as you are enjoying yourself, everybody is proud of the gear they own and rightly so , the point was not to slam 51 squires or 300 dollar amps but to provide an arguement to support my point of my position that tone is not overrated .and yeah i think that there is a difference between good tone and great tone and i believe that the quality of the tools plays a big factor along with the skill of the player that should not have to be stated here .but expensive does not always equate to great that too should be understood . but who can argue the supremacey of tone of a Marshall plexi vs a vox modeler or a fender deluxe reverb vs a peavey , thats what i'm talking about . Robert got the larger point that i was trying to make .. enjoy what you have and make the most of it , but be willing to broaden your knowledge by accepting that everyone is entitled to an opinion and should never be disparaged against for having one that goes against the grain .... 6S9L

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Wow what did I miss this afternoon. I leave early for the day to shop for tea pots and I come home to this??

Hey Rob I'm glad I rate high with you!

 

[oldguy]

I think SixStringJoe has an incredible sound as well, and his gear list is quite impressive. I especially liked his youtube video of Satch's Crush of Love.
Keep in mind this is the opinion of a hillbilly from Missouri.
"Eeh, don't take the world too serious, doc. You'll never get out of it alive, anyhow."
Bugs Bunny.

 

[marnold]

hey Marnold sorry to bum you out , time spent playing is never time wasted as long as you are enjoying yourself, everybody is proud of the gear they own and rightly so , the point was not to slam 51 squires or 300 dollar amps but to provide an arguement to support my point of my position that tone is not overrated .and yeah i think that there is a difference between good tone and great tone and i believe that the quality of the tools plays a big factor along with the skill of the player that should not have to be stated here .but expensive does not always equate to great that too should be understood . but who can argue the supremacey of tone of a Marshall plexi vs a vox modeler or a fender deluxe reverb vs a peavey , thats what i'm talking about . Robert got the larger point that i was trying to make .. enjoy what you have and make the most of it , but be willing to broaden your knowledge by accepting that everyone is entitled to an opinion and should never be disparaged against for having one that goes against the grain .... 6S9L

Don't sweat it, 6S9L. I've been in kinda moody lately. I've been under way too much stress at work lately. I think the combination of the stress, just getting my '51 back from the shop, and the post along with a dash of bad timing just kind of hit me wrong. I do believe I get and understand your larger point.

I did smile quietly to myself when I thought about one thing though. Someday, when the kids are out of the house (assuming that I'm not in one of those funny jackets with the sleeves in the back and they're squirting lithium down my throat with a turkey baster) I really would like to get my dream guitar: a US Jackson Randy Rhoads in white with a black pinstripe. I'd like to say that would be a mid-life crisis, but I'll be a bit old for that then!

Sorry for being such a whiny b***h

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

D I avoided posting to that thread , though I was tempted , personally I was disapointed by some of the posts , we greet new members with claims of this being a "friendly forum " but people were taking shots at people because of their opinions regarding their choice of gear , so much so I fear it cost the forum the participation of, in my opinion ,the best writer/poster we have , who has not shown up here since his opinions were disparaged regarding his personal taste in gear , REAL FRIENDLY ..everyone is entitled to their opinions whether you share them or not is a matter of choice , but I think we owe it to ourselves to be openminded and respectful . This forum should embrace varying points of view and respectfully allow all posters the opportunity to participate on an even playing field regardless of their playing ability or experience . respectfully 6S9L

Whoa Nelly!

My life gets busy at times so I don't have time to hang out. I just popped in. Maybe I gotta go back and read that thread, but I don't recall anyone's opinions disparaged.

In any case, I do hope Nelskie comes back.

...I now return you to your regularly scheduled closeminded opinion trashing

 

[Justaguyin_nc]

I guess I can add my opinion here ... When I came to the fretnet.. I asked about getting a certain sound.. the tone.. for certain groups/people.. I was told a plexi this or a fender that... but when its all boiled down..its fingers and feel.. to get "the tone" more than equipment... is tone over-rated.. not a chance! It's everything... but your equipment cheap or expensive is not going to do it.. until your capable of it.. if ever..

I also seen no-none here get dissed by their good stuff or bad... it's a conversation... if feelings are hurt anyplace.. it's within the person not the members.. If they don't agree .. don't mean they are downing anyone.. I think everyone here supports one another... if they have a squier 51 or a EC Blackie... And I think its mainly do to Roberts ability to show that Cheaper equipment does not mean cheap sounding equipment.. On that note... if I had the money to throw around..I would have a Blackie.. seeing I do not and/or never will.. the Squier has the Tone..I just need to get it out of it.

 

[Plank_Spanker]

This is the most open and civil guitar discussion board I've ever participated in. You folks are a very open minded group. However, if we all agreed on everything, this would be a very boring board, indeed.

 

[r_a_smith3530]

About three bars into it, you can tell that BB is pickin' on Lucille. That, to me at least, is tone. A lot of money? In the greater scheme of things, not really. The same could also be said for Muddy Waters and Albert Collins, and when it came to equipment expenditures, none of these artists' choice in gear was too outlandish.

Hound Dog Taylor's tone was responsible for the beginning of one of the Blues' killer labels, Alligator. For his entire career, he used nothing but bargain baement equipment. Tone does not have to equate to big bucks.

 

[duhvoodooman]

Hey, what do you guys say we all head over to the Home Recording & Sound Clip Showcase and create some tone, rather than beating our brains out here talking (er, typing?) about it?? R

 

[oldguy]

Amen! :R R
Glenn

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

Hey, what do you guys say we all head over to the Home Recording & Sound Clip Showcase and create some tone, rather than beating our brains out here talking (er, typing?) about it?? R

Naw, I rather play the "Tone or No-Tone" Fret Smackdown armegeddon!!

 

[Moshe]

I'm sorry if anyone was hurt from this thread. I just think it is an interesting topic. It is very dependent on the style of music and the expectations of the listener, imo.


Classical: Those cats spend hundreds of thousands just to get the right violin etc for the right tone..

Folk: nobody cares if you can even sing let alone play guitar as long as you have something to say and make it interesting.

jazz: usually tone is the last consideration for jazz sax or trumpet player. Someone like kenny g who has excellent tone but just flies around on major scales and plays sappy songs is considered a joke in the jazz community.

The problem I have with worrying too much about tone is that for me, if I enjoy my tone and think about it too much my ears/brain gets sick of my tone even if its pretty good. It seems like I get "tone fatigue" or something... I will go to a different guitar or amp and say "oh, that's better" even though it really isn't. I was just tired of the last tone? Anyone else experience this?


(edited for spelling)