Mythbusters

[tot_Ou_tard]

http://www.guitarattack.com/mythbusters.htm

 

[t_ross33]

:bravo:

Funny, but true in so many ways. We all KNOW what a so-called-cheap guitar sounds like in the hands of a talented player - many of which reside right here at theFret. I'd personally have more fun with a variety of good quality cheapies than one expensive as H-E-double hockeysticks "BRAND NAME" axe.

I know of a guy that consistantly argues that there is NO WAY a "vintage" guitar can sound as good as a new guitar of the same pedigree because of improvements in quality control, components etc. I too am skeptical of those that claim that over time sound vibrations "mellow" wood by massaging the microscopic wood fibers etc. etc. and 40 years of gunk and grime add to the sound quality.

But it's all subjective cuz every once-in-a-while there's that ONE that will just reach out and touch you... :rockon:

 

[Robert]

Yeah, some think that old wood in a Vintage strat is what makes it sound much better than a new strat. Bologna, I say. It's probably just that those old strats were much better made than the new ones of today. Case in point - Jimi played brand new stock strats, and he had amazingly good sounding brand new strats.

 

[street music]

Very informative!

 

[Kodiak3D]

It would be very interesting to see Mythbusters do a show on this. I love that show.

 

[LagrangeCalvert]

Ive been playing guitar for 20 years now, and modding for about half of that time. IMHO the biggest difference in tone (I'm a tone whore so trust me I found these things out the hard way) is HARDWARE. I've noticed the weight of the guitar, the neck mount (set or bolt on) and how the strings are attached; String through, Floating bridge, Floyd, or W/E, are the biggest play the biggest part in shaping sound as well - that is, beyond hardware. The Nut material and type can play a factor into how a guitar sounds and feels.


I noticed a big difference in clarity and bite when I went from the cheap plastic nut and stock saddles of my 50's strat to the LSR Roller nut and graph tech saddles...... AND I haven't broke a string on that guitar since I had those mods done (a year ago)........

Same with my Epi. I put a roller nut and graph tech saddles and it made the tone awesome.


Thats my .02 on the subject(s).

My thing is :

Its only a cheap guitar until you stick 300 dollars in parts into it. I refuse to pay more than 400 dollars for slabs of wood that I can shape/tune to play like a 2000 dollar slab of plants/bone/whatever "booo-teek" materials you can think of.

 

[street music]

LC, that's a great informative take that I think says alot coming from that type of experience.:bravo:

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

IMHO the biggest difference in tone (I'm a tone whore so trust me I found these things out the hard way) is HARDWARE.

In a back alley with your dignity in tatters?

At one point, I was looking into upgrading the bridge &/or use graphtech saddles on my Godins. But the bridges are nonstandard so I never found a replacement. The odd thing is that I broke 4 high E strings on the Godin Radiator over the last two days, before that it has been at least six months.

I've been working on rhythm & have adjusted my technique, hopefully that'll help.

 

[Robert]

I've played for 27 years now, and in my opinion, what makes the biggest difference in tone are the pickups.

 

[marnold]

I've been playing for 4,563 years and I feel that the thing that improves my tone the most is getting the voices in my head to shut up.

Seriously, folks, "tone" and "good tone" are such massively subjective words that much of it will be up to interpretation. One man's "woman tone" will be another man's "muddy mess." One man's "vintage Strat tone" will be another man's "shrill, fizzy, gutless waste."

Add to that the fact that everyone's sense of hearing is different whether those differences be biological or brought on by years of exposure to noise. If Eric Johnson actually feels that removing a screw from one of his pedals makes it sound better, who am I to question? Even if it is a difference that no scientific equipment will ever be able to measure, if it makes HIM feel better and play with more confidence, then it's a good thing for him.

My experience is obviously limited. I can say that swapping the Area '61s for the original Chinese single coils made a big difference to me, even if the clips I've posted make the difference somewhat subtle. The noiselessness and improvement in clarity mean the difference between a guitar that I was struggling to like and a guitar that I can't put down.

 

[warren0728]

i have to agree with marnold....tone is so subjective....just like musical styles....while i don't think i could sit through an entire opera i certainly appreciate the talent of those opera singers.... :beer:

ww

 

[Robert]

Wow, Marnold, I know you are not a child anymore, but I didn't know you were that old!

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

I've been playing for 4,563 years and I feel that the thing that improves my tone the most is getting the voices in my head to shut up.

Good luck with that.

Seriously, folks, "tone" and "good tone" are such massively subjective words that much of it will be up to interpretation. One man's "woman tone" will be another man's "muddy mess." One man's "vintage Strat tone" will be another man's "shrill, fizzy, gutless waste."

"shrill, fizzy, gutless waste" is *exactly* the tone I'm going for, but I only ever end up with "vintage Strat tone". Tell me who this other man is & I'll go & get my d@mned tone back.

I agree with Marnold, with the proviso that folx are inclined to preworry about tone.

Maybe this doesn't sound so good, perhaps if I changed this, that, & the other, I'd be in tonal bliss.

A quick peek around the interwebs reveals that it never stops. This knowledge can help you relax & play what you've got. Making occasional changes as experiments, & to find out what you prefer.

 

[marnold]

Wow, Marnold, I know you are not a child anymore, but I didn't know you were that old!

I look remarkably well-preserved for my age, don'tcha think? Would you like a glass of blood? Oh, what a giveaway!

Actually, that's combined ages of all the voices in my head.

I agree with tot that this Guitarist Obsessive-Compulsive Syndrome (GOCS, more commonly known as GAS) is not cured by any amount of logic or reason. Guitars will always be shiny. Big Marshall stacks will always be powerful (and over-compensating).

 

[LagrangeCalvert]

I've played for 27 years now, and in my opinion, what makes the biggest difference in tone are the pickups.

To clarify, by hardware I include pots/pups in that category.



AND I agree that tone is the most fussed about subject AND most of the time the tone of the guitar can be fixed with the amp settings.....or a better amp.


This thread almost lends itself to the "tone is in the fingers....tone is in the guitar" discussion we had a few months back. :thwap:

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

AND I agree that tone is the most fussed about subject AND most of the time the tone of the guitar can be fixed with the amp settings.....or a better amp.


This thread almost lends itself to the "tone is in the fingers....tone is in the guitar" discussion we had a few months back. :thwap:

That was fun .

:rotflmao: Did'ja know that I was actually talking about fingers with no implied dichotomy with gear. :rotflmao:

But back to our good Friend LaGrange's main point.

Which is that one gets a better result by concerning oneself more with the hardware: pups, bridges, saddles than with the body: neck material, body wood etc.

Sounds reasonable to me, but my experience is limited.

 

[warren0728]

But back to our good Friend LaGrange's main point.

Which is that one gets a better result by concerning oneself more with the hardware: pups, bridges, saddles than with the body: neck material, body wood etc.

Sounds reasonable to me, but my experience is limited.

if i had to guess i would have to go with hardware (on electrics only) and truthfully the only differences would be discerned by other guitar cork sniffers...i doubt if the average person in an audience would be able to tell if you were playing a squire stock through a ss amp and playing a vintage strat through a vintage tube amph....just sayin'....

ww

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

if i had to guess i would have to go with hardware (on electrics only) and truthfully the only differences would be discerned by other guitar cork sniffers...i doubt if the average person in an audience would be able to tell if you were playing a squire stock through a ss amp and playing a vintage strat through a vintage tube amph....just sayin'....

ww

Just what is this audience thing you speak of .

 

[LagrangeCalvert]

I have to agree with you...most people wouldn't know. But most talented Rock n' roll guitarists play with above average stuff....

But I tend to disagree that most people do not know what sounds good and would be able to tell somethings up - but couldn't put a finger or ear on it - if lets say you came out with a crate practice amp and a squier right off the shelves then played with it.....except for the Indie Rock scene.....not a slam its just they usually have vintage gear and can hardly bang out chords or riffs that sound something like music......so I guess it is a slam.

IMHO nut material and saddle material do make a sonic difference in tone and esp. feel.

Now........this is what a shame really is:

I saw "Fall Out Boy" on Saturday Night Live - caught a re-run. And they had great gear, but absolutely sucked buttermilk through a straw.....they were more worried about jumping around on stage than sounding good. I expect a band to sound like they do on their record......

I think pro-tools should be banned from use on major record labels....or at least you should have to pass a "talent" test before using it.


Thats my rant 4 today....sorry.....

 

[stingx]

You can't polish a turd...well, actually you can but then in the end it's just a highly polished turd. The best upgrade and what makes a guitar sound good is PRACTICE. That's it. It doesn't get any simpler. These guys we grew up listening to spent their time PLAYING and honing their craft. These days of modelers and forums people piss away all kinds of money on stuff thinking it'll make them play better. There is no substitute for talent. You either have it or you don't - at least that's ONE thing you can't buy these days...

 

[LagrangeCalvert]

You can't polish a turd...well, actually you can but then in the end it's just a highly polished turd. The best upgrade and what makes a guitar sound good is PRACTICE. That's it. It doesn't get any simpler. These guys we grew up listening to spent their time PLAYING and honing their craft. These days of modelers and forums people piss away all kinds of money on stuff thinking it'll make them play better. There is no substitute for talent. You either have it or you don't - at least that's ONE thing you can't buy these days...

As quoted from the great Fret.net book....Spudman, chapter 8, verse 12.


You speak the truth....and on top of that you talk of turds.....

Talent...then gear...then pancakes.ancake:

 

[just strum]

LC, I can buy in to or at least understand your reasoning on everything, but the nut material. IMHO nut material means almost nothing since any string that's fretted takes the nut out of the sound element. As long as the material is harder as plastic or harder, I really don't think you are going to find a whole lot of difference. Even to the trained ear I don't think they would notice it if all other parts of the guitar and gear were equal.

 

[LagrangeCalvert]

I use exclusively LSR roller nuts....

and nut material played more into sustain/bite.

Ask around, see if people who changed the nuts (would that be like a musical sex change) on their guitars have noticed a difference. Most people I know say yes, but it could be (this is not being an *** either) one of those mental things that makes you THINK the sound is different.

I mainly do it so I don't break strings. I play heavy and about 20hrs. a week, so the less time I spend doing tech on a guitar the better. Personally I have noticed that with roller nuts you get a slipperier feel with the cost of a tad of sustain.....

 

[Bloozcat]

Sometimes when you put the best of everything in a guitar, it still ends up sounding less than toneful. And sometimes when you don't use the best of everything, you still end up with a guitar with sweet tone. There's a little magic in the process that defies logic.

From experience I've found that those things that are considered "essential" for good tone, are worth pursuing, but they aren't necessarily going to guarantee perfect results. Using a Strat as an example: A lightweight piece of alder or swamp ash for a body will result in a more resonant body generally, so I use lighter bodies whenever possible. Although heavier alder bodies are purported to produce better sustain, I've found that isn't necessarily the truth in many cases. So, I stick with resonance and reasonably good to great sustain in the lighter body. A thinner finish will allow the body to resonate better than a thicker finish, all things being equal, so I use nitro lacquer. A steel tremolo block has better ring, chime, and sustain than a cast block, and it transfers the string energy to the body better, so I use steel. A bone nut produces clearer open string notes than plastic or most soft synthetics, so I use bone (or Tusq, which is pretty close to bone).

Even though all these things were found in the "vintage" Strats that are so highly prized, they don't guarantee that a new guitar made this way will sound like a prized vintage Strat. But then again, many a Strat from the vintage era that was made like this, didn't sound like a prized vintage Strat either. Call it, magic, mojo, or whatever, it's not an exacting science. Despite the best materials and the best intentions, some guitars turn out to be toneful, and some turn out to be bricks. It's just the way it is....

 

[Duff]

Mythical

Some guitars sound magical for reasons not attributable to their physical composition alone, in any understandable way. The guitar being a very complex mix of separate pieces and qualities of pieces, and imperfections can make for unanticipated magic.

Plus any of several players may find the guitar magical or otherwise. The player himself may be mainly mythical.

I like to think of the great possibly mythical, "Johnny B. Good". Presumably he has some great tone. What did he carry in that gunny sack. Probably not a tricked out super mega ax. He practiced. He had ideas that he drew from his environment and mind and transferred thru his fingers into his unknown guitar. One day his name would be in lights and people would come from miles around to hear, "hear" him play. Obviously he had tone. Was he like Hendrix or others that just pick up a basic guitar and are able to produce magic spontaneously? This would suggest that you don't even have to "learn" a guitar, individually, to make it sing your soul. I would imagine that these people find great sounding guitars in lots of different places and that they have found some really poor sounding ones as well.

I have played very inexpensive guitars that to my ear sound super great. Some of these companies are making some great inexpensive guitars. I played some sweet sounding ones, to me: a Samick twelve string acoustic, an inexpensive Yamaha acoustic, and Epi Sg with stock pups.

And then, the major factor is the amp. A super great amp can make a funky guitar sound unbelievable. A funky amp can make a great guitar sound terrible.

So it is a quest; possibly mythical, to find that special super great tone, sometimes found, sometimes elusive. Some people try to build that tone, others try to find it. When you get it you know it, whether anybody else agrees or not. So it is a personal thing that is important to some people, while others are content with brand loyalty, model admiration, star emulation, and other reasons to believe that their ax sounds super mega great.

As in any art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder; or hands, ears, imagination, etc.

Duffy

Everybody is right. It is a subjective thing. Objectively we sometimes agree.

 

[sumitomo]

Ya know this is the same for other things too.I have worked on cars for 30+ yrs.,built alot of race cars and even though they use the same parts some just have that ya know!!and you go crazy just trying to recreate it.Sumi

 

[tremoloman]

Ive been playing guitar for 20 years now, and modding for about half of that time. IMHO the biggest difference in tone (I'm a tone whore so trust me I found these things out the hard way) is HARDWARE. I've noticed the weight of the guitar, the neck mount (set or bolt on) and how the strings are attached; String through, Floating bridge, Floyd, or W/E, are the biggest play the biggest part in shaping sound as well - that is, beyond hardware. The Nut material and type can play a factor into how a guitar sounds and feels.


I noticed a big difference in clarity and bite when I went from the cheap plastic nut and stock saddles of my 50's strat to the LSR Roller nut and graph tech saddles...... AND I haven't broke a string on that guitar since I had those mods done (a year ago)........

Same with my Epi. I put a roller nut and graph tech saddles and it made the tone awesome.


Thats my .02 on the subject(s).

My thing is :

Its only a cheap guitar until you stick 300 dollars in parts into it. I refuse to pay more than 400 dollars for slabs of wood that I can shape/tune to play like a 2000 dollar slab of plants/bone/whatever "booo-teek" materials you can think of.

VERY WELL SAID! :dude:

I agree 100% with your statements above. A guitar is what YOU make it. I find it much more fun getting a cheaper MIM and then modding the hell out of it versus buying a stock model. Making the instrument your own is what its all about.

 

[sunvalleylaw]

T-Man, I was thinking just that re: MIMs when I just read you post about the prices of American Strats over in the new american strat thread. I love my MIM 60th. I have not felt the need to mod it yet at all. I may do the nut sometime.

 

[Spudman]

Some guitars sound magical for reasons not attributable to their physical composition alone, in any understandable way. The guitar being a very complex mix of separate pieces and qualities of pieces, and imperfections can make for unanticipated magic.

Plus any of several players may find the guitar magical or otherwise. The player himself may be mainly mythical.

I like to think of the great possibly mythical, "Johnny B. Good". Presumably he has some great tone. What did he carry in that gunny sack. Probably not a tricked out super mega ax. He practiced. He had ideas that he drew from his environment and mind and transferred thru his fingers into his unknown guitar. One day his name would be in lights and people would come from miles around to hear, "hear" him play. Obviously he had tone. Was he like Hendrix or others that just pick up a basic guitar and are able to produce magic spontaneously? This would suggest that you don't even have to "learn" a guitar, individually, to make it sing your soul. I would imagine that these people find great sounding guitars in lots of different places and that they have found some really poor sounding ones as well.

I have played very inexpensive guitars that to my ear sound super great. Some of these companies are making some great inexpensive guitars. I played some sweet sounding ones, to me: a Samick twelve string acoustic, an inexpensive Yamaha acoustic, and Epi Sg with stock pups.

And then, the major factor is the amp. A super great amp can make a funky guitar sound unbelievable. A funky amp can make a great guitar sound terrible.

So it is a quest; possibly mythical, to find that special super great tone, sometimes found, sometimes elusive. Some people try to build that tone, others try to find it. When you get it you know it, whether anybody else agrees or not. So it is a personal thing that is important to some people, while others are content with brand loyalty, model admiration, star emulation, and other reasons to believe that their ax sounds super mega great.

As in any art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder; or hands, ears, imagination, etc.

Duffy

Everybody is right. It is a subjective thing. Objectively we sometimes agree.

+1 Well said.

 

[hubberjub]

Price does not make a good guitar good. It also doesn't matter where in the world it was made. Especially on mass produced (CNC) guitars like Fender, Gibson, and PRS (and most others). I have a 1991 Fender American Standard Stratocaster that I bought in 1996 that I just can't enjoy. In the last twelve years I've installed locking tuners, swapped the bridge, swapped it back, put Graph Tech nut and saddles on, replaced all of the electronics, and put Seymour Duncan pickups in it. I broke down and had it professionally set up and it still doesn't play or sound very good. Sometimes you just get a dud. It's taken me 12 years to realize it.