New Box Soon

[marnold]

Cool. My computer has been behaving itself recently, but as I've been perusing computers here and there, I've started to wonder: what's the important stuff to have these days? USB 3.0? One of the Intel Core i3/i5/i7 processors? What if you don't get one of those? What's a good version of yesterday's technology? Core 2 Duo? Core 2 Quad? How important is the motherboard, and how do you know what you're getting motherboard-wise?

How did you decide on all of your stuff?

I read Computer Power User magazine a lot

The i5-750 processors came along at just the right time for me. My issue with them before was the waste of power/heat. If one core was going full bore, so were the rest. This one is the first quad core to be able to cut power completely (well, as completely as you can) to unused cores and use that extra power to boost a core that is active, effectively overclocking it.

I got a mobo with USB 3.0 for future-proofing purposes. I tend to keep computers for a long time. Once again, it just seemed to be good timing on my part that USB 3.0 mobos are just starting to come out. Mobo quality is extremely important. Gigabyte makes a big deal about this one using more copper in the PCB, Japanese caps instead of Chinese, etc.

Read up on this stuff at Anandtech or HardOCP. They all agreed that the i5-750 is the bang-for-buck king now. When I looked at them earlier this year, I was aiming for a Core2Duo setup

 

[guitartango]

2 Duo? Core 2 Quad? How important is the motherboard, and how do you know what you're getting motherboard-wise?

How did you decide on all of your stuff?

Of course you know that the 2 Core was invented for Norton Antivirus ! I takes over one CPU then the other.

 

[Eric]

Mobo quality is extremely important. Gigabyte makes a big deal about this one using more copper in the PCB, Japanese caps instead of Chinese, etc.

I suppose I asked about this because, in many many package deals (e.g. Dell, HP, etc.), you couldn't find motherboard model info if you wanted to. Because of that, I wondered if it was something about which people spaz that doesn't make that much difference in the end.

 

[marnold]

I suppose I asked about this because, in many many package deals (e.g. Dell, HP, etc.), you couldn't find motherboard model info if you wanted to. Because of that, I wondered if it was something about which people spaz that doesn't make that much difference in the end.

That the problem with that very scenario. The greater danger, though, is the cheap PSU they throw in there. It might be OK if you only use onboard graphics, but put a halfway decent aftermarket graphics card in there . . .

 

[Eric]

That the problem with that very scenario. The greater danger, though, is the cheap PSU they throw in there. It might be OK if you only use onboard graphics, but put a halfway decent aftermarket graphics card in there . . .

and what? What exactly is the point of these gigantic (and high-end/non-cheap) power supplies? I always tried to spec them with enough juice, but never really understood why I was doing that.

 

[marnold]

and what? What exactly is the point of these gigantic (and high-end/non-cheap) power supplies? I always tried to spec them with enough juice, but never really understood why I was doing that.

You don't truly need a gigantic one, just a good one. There are several advantages to getting a better PSU:
1) Cleaner power and will be able to keep delivering it even if the current from the wall is so-so
2) Consistent power to all rails with a minimum of noise. Inconsistent power quality will shorten the life of components and give you those lovely random lock-ups that you can't nail down.
3) Good PSU's wattage ratings tend to be conservative. Cheap ones will overstate things. (e.g. my 750 Corsair can provide 700W to the 12V rail alone. The CyberPower branded 800W can only provide 600W to the 12V rail--and that's if you can trust the label.)
4) If the PSU goes it tends to take whatever is connected to it with it--which is everything.
5) Better PSUs will have higher efficiencies which will mean lower power usage and less heat produced. Mine is guaranteed to be 80%+ efficient no matter what the load.

All of the above things are even more important if you plan on overclocking (I don't) or if you are running power-hungry hardware (high-end CPUs, multiple GPUs, several hard drives, etc.).

Read HardOCP's tests of cheap PSUs vs. good ones. Granted their torture test is not a real-life scenario. You don't want to max out your PSU like that at all times. However, good PSUs pass all their tests. The cheap ones (like, the ones that tend to be included with the case) don't.

My Corsair TX750 can be bought from Amazon for $115. Mine has a $20 rebate. I don't consider $95 to be too much to pay for peace of mind, a good warranty, and future expandability.

 

[duhvoodooman]

...Read up on this stuff at Anandtech or HardOCP. They all agreed that the i5-750 is the bang-for-buck king now. When I looked at them earlier this year, I was aiming for a Core2Duo setup

I did, and they do. The i5-750 is that magic "knee" point in the price vs. performance curve at the moment, where you get a ton of performance for a very reasonable price. I initially got started looking at processors recently to provide some input to Tunghaichuan, who was scoping out a new system. It became obvious pretty quickly that nothing at the $200 price point could touch the i5-750, performance-wise. I started looking around and found a really nice DIY bundle at NewEgg (CPU, mobo, memory, case, PSU and HDD). Still being offered at this point, though this link probably won't be good for more than another month or two, tops:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.328587​

My own PC is 5 years old now and getting a little long in the tooth, so I was quickly seduced into buying it myself, as well as recommending it to Tung (he bought it, too). The only "turd" in the bundle is that 1.5TB Seagate HDD, which has a horrendous reported failure rate. But I wanted a smaller, faster HDD for the OS and apps anyway, and will just use the Seagate for long-term storage, with full backup to a NAS drive I have on my home network. If it does fail, I'll just pester NewEgg until they let me replace it with something else. DVM-->oke<--NewEgg

Anyway, I just built the PC this weekend, adding the second HDD (a 500GB WD), a Geforce 9800 GT vid card, a Sony DVD burner, a good aftermarket CPU cooler (haven't OC'ed the processor yet, but definitely will), and Win7 Pro 64-bit (full install OEM version). It's up and running, but I've pretty much done nothing but install stuff so far, so I haven't had a chance to really give it a workout yet....

 

[tunghaichuan]

First of all, thanks to DVM. I now have a smoking fast machine after following his advice. :happy

My machine is basically the same as DVM's, but I opted for a slightly new nVidia video card. I'm also going to max out the memory shortly. The bundle came with 4gigs of RAM, I'm going to add 4 more. I also need to buy two SATA cables to hook up the second POS hard drive and second optical drive.

It took me all weekend to get the machine up and going, and it involved lots of head scratching, screaming, swearing and cursing, but the machine is up and Win7 is installed.

The low point of this experience was when I realized that UPS had f*cked up a couple of my parts. :what The box with the video card, two optical drives, and after market super chip cooler (for overclocking the i5 chip) looked like it had been dropped about 10-20 feet. The cheesy plastic mounting bracket for the cooler was smashed and the Sony optical drive was dented. The Samsung drive seemed to be okay and the video card seems to operate correctly but I'm keeping a watch on them. So now comes the waiting game of returning the broken UPS-damage parts to Newegg. :thwap So I'll have to wait to install the after marked chip cooler so I can overclock the i5 chip. Still, the machine is very fast at the stock 2.67GHz frequency.

I did, and they do. The i5-750 is that magic "knee" point in the price vs. performance curve at the moment, where you get a ton of performance for a very reasonable price. I initially got started looking at processors recently to provide some input to Tunghaichuan, who was scoping out a new system. It became obvious pretty quickly that nothing at the $200 price point could touch the i5-750, performance-wise. I started looking around and found a really nice DIY bundle at NewEgg (CPU, mobo, memory, case, PSU and HDD). Still being offered at this point, though this link probably won't be good for more than another month or two, tops:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.328587​

My own PC is 5 years old now and getting a little long in the tooth, so I was quickly seduced into buying it myself, as well as recommending it to Tung (he bought it, too). The only "turd" in the bundle is that 1.5TB Seagate HDD, which has a horrendous reported failure rate. But I wanted a smaller, faster HDD for the OS and apps anyway, and will just use the Seagate for long-term storage, with full backup to a NAS drive I have on my home network. If it does fail, I'll just pester NewEgg until they let me replace it with something else. DVM-->oke<--NewEgg

Anyway, I just built the PC this weekend, adding the second HDD (a 500GB WD), a Geforce 9800 GT vid card, a Sony DVD burner, a good aftermarket CPU cooler (haven't OC'ed the processor yet, but definitely will), and Win7 Pro 64-bit (full install OEM version). It's up and running, but I've pretty much done nothing but install stuff so far, so I haven't had a chance to really give it a workout yet....

 

[marnold]

I've been very happy with mine except that if I turn it off overnight, I think that either the memory or the video card (leaning toward the latter) become ever so slightly unseated and cause stability problem. Basically if I power it down and give those three a push, I'm golden after that. I usually leave my box on anyway so it's not a huge issue.

 

[Kazz]

Matt it is usually the video card in cases lke that. It tends to happen more in lower end cases tho not the higher end solidly built cases.

 

[marnold]

Matt it is usually the video card in cases lke that. It tends to happen more in lower end cases tho not the higher end solidly built cases.

That's my guess too, although it's odd because there's actually an extra plastic clip on the slot itself for PCI-E cards. Whatever the case (har!) it works. I just wish I had some apps that could make more complete use of this thing's CPU power.

 

[tunghaichuan]

That's my guess too, although it's odd because there's actually an extra plastic clip on the slot itself for PCI-E cards. Whatever the case (har!) it works. I just wish I had some apps that could make more complete use of this thing's CPU power.

Yeah, but to do that you need real CPU/memory hogging applications such as those that Windows has to offer. Come over to the dark side, you know you want to. oke

 

[marnold]

Well, after much trial and error, I have determined that my video card itself has given up the ghost. I ended up going to Green Bay and getting a GT220-based card. My system has been running stably on it for two days now. Tonight I popped in the original card and the box seized up as soon as I got into X. It's clearly not a seating issue. I'm going to power down the box entirely tonight, which means it won't be started back up until at least after lunch tomorrow--probably later because I'm going to have to make a hospital call. If it's flaky on start-up I've got another BIOS setting I can tweak. I'm just happy that I have isolated one problem anyway.

I'm going to RMA the card and see if I can talk them into giving me a better one. If not, I may see if they'll just give me credit and I'll order the BFG version of this card. I've had really good luck with BFG support--I've even got the t-shirts to prove it!

 

[marnold]

I finally figured out the other problem. I got some Kingston memory KVR1333D3N9K2, to be precise. Now programs don't crash after a cold boot, nor does it throw Memtest86+ errors. Not sure if the original memory itself was bad or if the mobo just didn't like it. Whatever the case, it seems to be working now. I've done cold boots the past two days to test it. I'll try one more tomorrow morning. If it passes, I'm golden.

 

[duhvoodooman]

From what I read, memory/mobo incompatibility is a pretty common thing. Doesn't seem like that should be the case, but apparently it's true....

Could be worse--I was doing a Prime95 stability test/burn-in on my new box and blew up the Gigabyte GA-P55M-UD2 motherboard. The system shut itself off and then wouldn't power up again. Power would turn on for about a second, then immediately shut itself off. After 3 or 4 seconds, this on-off cycle would repeat, ad infinitum, until the PSU rocker switch was shut off. I did some internet searching for that symptom and most of the information I found pointed to a bad PSU. So I RMA'ed that, installed the replacement, and....same behavior. :mad So second time around, I got my multimeter out and did my own troubleshooting, and everything pointed to the motherboard itself. I suspect that probably a board component failed to a dead short and the PSU senses the current draw and shuts itself off & then resets. Replacement board is on the local UPS delivery truck today....

** EDIT**

New mobo did it--back up & running. Hope this one is a bit more robust!

 

[Eric]

So what's the ultimate conclusion on this? I think you may have hit a couple of hardware-defect-induced snags, yes? Any lessons learned?

I'm still running on the fumes of my fairly well-aged computer, and I'm curious if you'd change anything if you were to do this now.

 

[marnold]

So what's the ultimate conclusion on this? I think you may have hit a couple of hardware-defect-induced snags, yes? Any lessons learned?

I'm still running on the fumes of my fairly well-aged computer, and I'm curious if you'd change anything if you were to do this now.

No, I really wouldn't change anything. The two problems I had were very unfortunate and hard to diagnose, but thankfully easy to remedy. Since I've gotten the new memory and video card it's been rock solid.

The only thing I might change is to go to a slightly more powerful video card, but that would result in a significant up tick in price. I think I made a good choice given the time that I bought it. I'm looking for something around an NVIDIA GTS 250-level as a potential upgrade if prices drop, or wait until there are mainstream versions of the Fermi-based cards available.

 

[Eric]

No, I really wouldn't change anything. The two problems I had were very unfortunate and hard to diagnose, but thankfully easy to remedy. Since I've gotten the new memory and video card it's been rock solid.

What were the issues and how did you resolve them?

The only thing I might change is to go to a slightly more powerful video card, but that would result in a significant up tick in price. I think I made a good choice given the time that I bought it. I'm looking for something around an NVIDIA GTS 250-level as a potential upgrade if prices drop, or wait until there are mainstream versions of the Fermi-based cards available.

You play games on your puter, right? Is there any practical reason for a video card upgrade if any gaming I do will be rooted in mid-90s Lucasarts games? In other words, do they boost performance in regular boring areas of computing like web and audio applications? The answer would appear to be no, obviously, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything subtle.

 

[Eric]

What were the issues and how did you resolve them?

Oh, it looks like I just needed to scroll up a little bit.

So the video card died and the memory was incompatible? Were those the only two hiccups that occurred?

 

[marnold]

You play games on your puter, right? Is there any practical reason for a video card upgrade if any gaming I do will be rooted in mid-90s Lucasarts games? In other words, do they boost performance in regular boring areas of computing like web and audio applications? The answer would appear to be no, obviously, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything subtle.

If that's it, then no. The GT220 will do just fine and it's a real power/heat miser too which is a major bonus. It can also totally offload video decoding too which is a further bonus.

So the video card died and the memory was incompatible? Were those the only two hiccups that occurred?

I'm not sure if compatibility was the problem or if they just didn't work right. But yes, those were the only two problems. It was a PITA to diagnose. The video card in and of itself would have been pretty easy.

 

[Eric]

I did, and they do. The i5-750 is that magic "knee" point in the price vs. performance curve at the moment, where you get a ton of performance for a very reasonable price. I initially got started looking at processors recently to provide some input to Tunghaichuan, who was scoping out a new system. It became obvious pretty quickly that nothing at the $200 price point could touch the i5-750, performance-wise. I started looking around and found a really nice DIY bundle at NewEgg (CPU, mobo, memory, case, PSU and HDD). Still being offered at this point, though this link probably won't be good for more than another month or two, tops:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.328587​

My own PC is 5 years old now and getting a little long in the tooth, so I was quickly seduced into buying it myself, as well as recommending it to Tung (he bought it, too). The only "turd" in the bundle is that 1.5TB Seagate HDD, which has a horrendous reported failure rate. But I wanted a smaller, faster HDD for the OS and apps anyway, and will just use the Seagate for long-term storage, with full backup to a NAS drive I have on my home network. If it does fail, I'll just pester NewEgg until they let me replace it with something else. DVM-->oke<--NewEgg

Anyway, I just built the PC this weekend, adding the second HDD (a 500GB WD), a Geforce 9800 GT vid card, a Sony DVD burner, a good aftermarket CPU cooler (haven't OC'ed the processor yet, but definitely will), and Win7 Pro 64-bit (full install OEM version). It's up and running, but I've pretty much done nothing but install stuff so far, so I haven't had a chance to really give it a workout yet....

Hey DVM/Tung, do either of you care to list out the specs of this DIY package you got? As you mentioned, the link is long past dead now, but I perused what they have now and would be interested in the price and specs of your DIY kits for comparison purposes.

BTW, to save me some time, would anyone care to enlighten me as to where the Intel i5-2500 fits into the picture?

 

[tunghaichuan]

Wow, can't believe its been almost a year now. My machine is still running great.

Hey DVM/Tung, do either of you care to list out the specs of this DIY package you got? As you mentioned, the link is long past dead now, but I perused what they have now and would be interested in the price and specs of your DIY kits for comparison purposes.

Basic Bundle:

Item Number: Item Description: Quantity: Price:
N82E16832116758 WIN PRO 7 64-BT ENG 1PK DSP OEI DVD 1 39.99
N82E16822148412 HD 1.5T|ST SATA2 ST31500541AS 1 109.99
N82E16819115215 CPU INTEL|CORE I5 750 2.66G R 1 199.99
N82E16817182191 PSU ROSEWILL|RG700-S12 700W RT 1 69.99
N82E16813128405 MB GIGABYTE GA-P55M-UD2 P55 RT 1 104.99
N82E16820231277 MEM 2Gx2|GSKILL F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL 1 84.99
N82E16811146060 CASE NZXT| LEXS - 001BK RT 1 79.99

A few aftermarket goodies to complete the package:

tem Number: Item Description: Quantity: Price:
N82E16835100007 CPU THERMPASTE|AS5-3.5G % 1 9.99
N82E16814125266 VGA GIGABYTE GV-N250ZL-1GI GTS250 R 1 139.99
N82E16827118030 DVD BURN SONY|AD-7240S-0B % 1 24.99
N82E16827151192 DVD BURNER SAMSUNG | SH-S223C % 1 24.99
N82E16835186134 CPUCOOL|ARCTIC FREEZER 7 PRO REV.2 1 36.98
N82E16822136320 HD 500G|WD WD5001AALS % 1 69.99
N82E16899261001 TOOL ROSEWILL|RTK-001 RTL 1 3.99

Added about a month ago to complete the package:

N82E16824236059 MNTR ASUS|LCD 23" 2MS VH236H RT 1 179.99

I also added another 4Gb of memory bringing the total up to 8Gb.

The Gigabyte GTS 250 video card is now obsolete and no longer available from New Egg. I'd probably go with a GTS 450 now, which seems to offer the most bang for the buck. But as always, YMMV. If you don't play games, yo don't need a really powerful video card.

In fact the Gigabyte mobo is not sold anymore, either. Due to DVM's problem with overclocking his mobo, I would go for a more robust brand if you decide to overclock. I have not overclocked my machine, but I did install the upgraded CPU cooler.

Other thoughts: the case is kinda cheesy, I'd probably opt for something else. I haven't had a problem with the Seagate 1T drive and it seems as most of the complaints were from using it in a RAID configuration, which I do not do.

BTW, to save me some time, would anyone care to enlighten me as to where the Intel i5-2500 fits into the picture?

I'm happy with the i5-750, so I don't feel the need to upgrade to the i5-2500, but here are some customer comments:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...yMark=False&IsFeedbackTab=true#scrollFullInfo

 

[Eric]

I also added another 4Gb of memory bringing the total up to 8Gb.

The Gigabyte GTS 250 video card is now obsolete and no longer available from New Egg. I'd probably go with a GTS 450 now, which seems to offer the most bang for the buck. But as always, YMMV.

In fact the Gigabyte mobo is not sold anymore, either. Due to DVM's problem with overclocking his mobo, I would go for a more robust brand if you decide to overclock. I have not overclocked my machine, but I did install the upgraded CPU cooler.

Thanks. I briefly fiddled around with the available options on cyberpower last night and have looked on newegg, and my conclusion is that quite a bit has changed. It may not have much in a practical/applicable sense, but in a model-number/understand-the-terminology way, it certainly has. I don't even think it's possible to buy an i5-750 chip anymore.

I suppose it's good because it means I'll be buying newer technology, but it's a minor downer in that I can't piggyback on the work of you guys quite as easily. If anyone would care to spec out a computer for me, I'd be conditionally grateful.

Oh and also, I am personally a big fan of Gigabyte motherboards. I had one back in the day and it was slammin'. Much better than the other stuff I've had, though I never did get an Abit or Asus motherboard. Back when I was lusting over building my own computer (think Celeron 300A overclocking era), I think Asus had the premier motherboard on the market.

But I digress (as always)...

I'm happy with the i5-750, so I don't feel the need to upgrade to the i5-2500, but here are some customer comments:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...yMark=False&IsFeedbackTab=true#scrollFullInfo

I was more curious on the differences between the two chips. I really need to do some research to understand all of the new models of motherboards, processors, etc. on the market.

That said, I will check out your link. Thanks.

 

[marnold]

I like the looks of that monitor. It's on my list if/when my monitor dies.

WRT the i5-750, I still really haven't pushed this thing to its limits. Mine is definitely GPU-bound when it comes to games, but I don't have anything right now that needs more horsepower. I've got a slightly different Gigabyte motherboard than DVM, but I've had no problems. They've got a good reputation on the 'Net. Mine's supposed to be one of the "overbuilt" ones. Having said that, I haven't tried overclocking, nor do I intend to. Maybe once I can actually push this thing I'll think about it.

 

[tunghaichuan]

Thanks. I briefly fiddled around with the available options on cyberpower last night and have looked on newegg, and my conclusion is that quite a bit has changed. It may not have much in a practical/applicable sense, but in a model-number/understand-the-terminology way, it certainly has. I don't even think it's possible to buy an i5-750 chip anymore.

Actually Newegg does still sell that chip:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115215&Tpk=N82E16819115215

It's about the same price as the i5-2500 and the 15-2500k is about $25 more, so I'm with you, I'd go for the newer technology.

Hopefully DVM will weigh in on this subject. I bugged him for a lot of advice when doing my build, and he didn't steer me wrong. All things considered, I got a powerful, fast machine out of the deal and I'm very happy with it.

 

[Ch0jin]

FWIW I build an x64 wintel box end of last year based around the i5 760 and I was extremely impressed with the i5. Excellent power scaling and with a hyper 212+ cooler, temps are very mild. Running it on a P7P55D-E and with the included software OC tool I had it running for a day at 4Ghz no worries. I don't have anything on here that needs that speed though so it's back running as standard. I'm sure whatever has replaced the 760 would be a fine choice.

 

[Eric]

So for all of the computer-savvy people out there, can you help me with the difference between the new Sandy Bridge chips? It looks like the i5 series is still about the same price, but I'm not sure I understand the point of low power, ultra-low power, normal, and unlocked turbo multiplier chips. If they're all comparable prices, what's the advantage of one over the other?

Without knowing the details of it, I'm assuming I'll get an i5-2500 chip whenever they fix the chipset issue they recalled, but I'd like to know what's up with the letter designation (e.g. i5-2500T, etc.).

 

[marnold]

I've been out of the loop for so long, I'm not sure what any of that means. My guess is that the lower power ones are intended for laptops and the unlocked multiplier ones are for people who want to overclock. I usually go to AnandTech when I need these sort of things answered.

 

[Eric]

I started looking around and found a really nice DIY bundle at NewEgg (CPU, mobo, memory, case, PSU and HDD). Still being offered at this point, though this link probably won't be good for more than another month or two, tops:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.328587​

My own PC is 5 years old now and getting a little long in the tooth, so I was quickly seduced into buying it myself, as well as recommending it to Tung (he bought it, too).

I recently ordered a similar newegg DIY combo with new-ish hardware. Everything but the motherboard should be waiting for me on my front porch, so I'm pretty jazzed.

I got the i5-2500K (the unlocked, overclockable version) and a Z68 motherboard with 8GB of RAM and a 1TB hard drive. Other than the case and PSU, that's pretty much it. The Sandy Bridge processors are supposed to have pretty decent GPUs built in, and with the Z68 chipset I can actually use it and still overclock.

I'll still have to build it and what not, but hopefully this will prove to be a good decision. Only $560 so far...

 

[tunghaichuan]

I recently ordered a similar newegg DIY combo with new-ish hardware. Everything but the motherboard should be waiting for me on my front porch, so I'm pretty jazzed.

I got the i5-2500K (the unlocked, overclockable version) and a Z68 motherboard with 8GB of RAM and a 1TB hard drive. Other than the case and PSU, that's pretty much it. The Sandy Bridge processors are supposed to have pretty decent GPUs built in, and with the Z68 chipset I can actually use it and still overclock.

I'll still have to build it and what not, but hopefully this will prove to be a good decision. Only $560 so far...

Cool. :thumbsup

My computer is still going strong. I've got about $2K into it now, after a year. After I added a video card, more memory, more storage. a new monitor, new wireless keyboard and mouse, etc. I'm thinking of adding a Blue Ray burner when the prices come down.

This was the first computer I built, and it turned out great. Hopefully it will go smooth for you and you won't encounter any difficulties. The main thing is to follow the instructions, and don't fry any of the static-sensitive parts.