phrasing

[ted s]

Hey folks, need'n some advise here. I suck at improv. and have a hard time coming up with phrases that don't sound like a scale. I would say my timing is good but I have some kind of mental block.

Thanks for any and all replies.

Ted

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Drink heavily while playing. Just kidding.

I phrase I guess based on who's playing I like, my favorite guitar players, and then mix them all up to discover new phrases or variations of old phrases. Mix and match. That's what some of them did.

 

[Nelskie]

For me, phrasing requires more of an "out-of-the-box" thought process. First off, regular practice is an absolutely essential ingredient to becoming more adept at phrasing. If you're familiar with the places on the fretboard that you need to go in certain parts of a song, it's much easier to figure out other ways to get there, or span in-between.

The other thing that really helped was to think of the phrase as a vocal, and not a chord or scale. Try humming a harmony or fill line to a particular chord or part of the song, and then try to play it - see where it takes you. Also, be creative with your picking / strumming attack - for example - try syncopating a phrase or fill to blend in with, or in contrast to the song's drum or bass line. The boys from Lynyrd Skynyrd do this type of thing to fantastic effect (ex. Workin For MCA, Saturday Night Special.)

Perhaps most importantly - don't overplay. Less IS more.

 

[aeolian]

I preface by saying that I'm no expert.

I take your question as a 2-part question. First part is phrasing, which I take to mean the breaks between each musical phrase. I've read that musical phrases should be like breathing, you stop to take a breath every so often, and your musical phrases should do the same. I'm learning to play fewer notes than I think it needs, which is another advice I read. I did an improv over Robert's backing tracking a couple of months' ago and I am actually pretty pleased with the phrasing (song number 6 "Improvization" at this link):

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2802&alid=-1

The second part is musical phrases. I find that if I jam over a track I tend to play the same licks over and over. What I do now is to stop at various points and imagine in my head what notes to play next. I then find the notes on the fretboard and run through it, then I incorporate it into the jam. This sounds like it is deliberate and no longer a jam, but I find that I'll discover some new riffs to play. After a few run throughs I can play through the jam from start to finish. The track I just posted was done that way. For the first 20 minutes I made up a handle of little riffs that can fit into the song, then I take a go at playing along to the whole thing. I thought it came out OK.

As I make up more and more of these riffs, they become what I can pull out to be used in any jam situatoin.

Don't know that this is any use, but that's how I do it.

aeolian

 

[Tim]

Hi Ted - Tone's first sentence makes a lot o f sense. But the follow up suggestion probably does not. I am in the same boat, but I am slowly moving from the back of the boat to the front.

Here is what I am presently doing and suggest you do it to. Go to the “Guitar Backing Tracks” website and become a member. http://www.guitarbt.com/

Then go down load some backing tracks. There are hundreds of them there. I found if you look under the “Jam” section there are 20 each “Jam Trax” MP3 selections. Download them to your hard drive and start playing solos over them. The songs are in several keys and several styles of music (rock, funk, blues, jazz, heavy metal, etc). You will have to figure out what keys the songs are in and then what progression they follow.

Every day play through some of the songs and try not to repeat the solo you played the day before. Expand your playing to beyond the one pentatonic box. Go to the extended box and then finally you will end up playing all five boxes. Try skipping strings and learn the roots on each string.

I received a lot of encouragement from fellow Fretters. If you need further help send me a PM. I am still new at this myself, which means I am not too far ahead of you. Good luck.

Dang I cannot believe I just gave advice on how to solo the scales. I guess I am progressing on playing the guitar.

 

[Spudman]

Ted
Search the forum some. We discussed this a while ago and a lot of people made some pretty good points there as well. I'd find it for you but I gotta run right now.
Good luck.

 

[ted s]

This is why I love this forum !, great responses and no BS for failing to use the search button. Thanks guys !, Search it shall be. Sometime I forget about the search, sorry.

Great tips.

 

[Robert]

Ted, try to sing a phrase before you play it. You can copy some SRV phrase or something and get it in your head so you can sing it anytime. Then play it with a different timing than SRV did over a blues. Just change the length of one note here and there.

You can work on collecting more licks or phrases and make them part of you. Over time, you will develop a vocabulary of licks and ideas that you have modified to become your own. Connecting all these little licks together with different variations to form a solo is actually phrasing.

"Stealing" is normal. I do it all the time, but I play the idea with my own variations; with a different technique, in a different musical situation, etc.

 

[t_ross33]

"Stealing" is normal. I do it all the time, but I play the idea with my own variations; with a different technique, in a different musical situation, etc.

Right said, brother. There isn't a guitar slinger out there, past or present, that didn't cop something from someone who influenced them. Just look at all the top players who site influences by Albert King, BB King, Muddy Waters etc. etc. etc. etc. Even the new generation of axe wranglers cop from Eddie, Randy Rhodes, Tommy Iomi, Billy Gibbons, Duane Allman... the list goes on and on. And it isn't so much "stealing" as someone showing you the way - one of the many paths to enlightenment.

Listen to me rambling on, I'm not much past cowboy cords, but I hold these truths to be self evident. Keep on it, vocalize it, I think that is VERY good advice and let the muse take you where she will.

 

[SuperSwede]

Its very easy to get stuck with your dusty old phrases and licks (it is for me at least).. Try to think in melodies when you play, and as robert says, try to sing it before you play it. And then lock yourself into your music room and dont leave until you know how to play the melody you just sang. Or follow Tone2thebone´s advice about heavy drinking

 

[Spudman]

And then lock yourself into your music room and don't leave until you know how to play the melody you just sang. Or follow Tone2thebone´s advice about heavy drinking

That singing is a terrific way to get out of scale mode. It will help you become more melodic. After all we mostly remember melody, right? How about "Row Your Boat"? Pretty memorable huh. Also when you start working with other players being able to sing the part you are trying to communicate about is a highly effective way to, well, communicate.

The part about heavy drinking has some relevance, but remember that Swede has been doing it and now he talks like Yoda and wears blue tights. Be cautious if you try this route.

 

[SuperSwede]

Gosh.. thanks for the compliments Spud! But its really just the blue spandex top that I wear these days, it goes great with a pair of Levis jeans.

 

[jpfeifer]

Hi Guys,

I've been enjoying reading the responses to this post. I like the "heavy drinking" suggestion

I think that working on phrasing is one of those things that can really improve your soloing and make it sound more musical.

Here's another tip that I've read about to improve phrasing:

Come up with some short phrase then try repeating it an octave higher or lower. If forces you to play something that is repeatable, and also prevents you from playing something that rambles on too long. This is a good technique to use for blues solos. For example, you can play something over the I chord. Then, try to play the same phrase when it goes to the IV chord (maybe you could even stay in the same octave as before). Then use this same phrase over the V chord and only change the ending of it.

-- Jim

 

[Spudman]

During my practice at home time tonight I found myself drifting into this topic while playing the geetar.

I used the Boss RC20-XL looper to lay down some chord changes of a song that you are probably familiar with, "8 Days A Week" by the Beatles. I did a verse and chorus and captured it in the Key of G. It went: G-A-C-G, G-A-C-G then Em-C-Em-A then G-A-C-G.

Next I did the melody voice live while the changes were playing in the background. I imagine the chords could be done into the computer as well and then looped for those that don't have a Loop Station.

I played the melody (I think it starts on the 3rd) in as many different positions as my laziness would allow. I played it in a bass voice low on the neck, then in a tenor voice mid neck and finally a soprano above the 12th fret. I also experimented with doing most of the melody on one string. Jazzers could probably do it in intervals (in their sleep).

What happened? Well I lost my mind of course which was a good thing. Once that was out of the way I started to see different ways, patterns, of playing this melody and a variety of other solo note sequences, either melodically or riffing all over the neck. This exercise somehow freed me from relying on repetitiously playing what I "know already" and got me thinking outside of that box.

It's a simple little melody (wishing I would have written it) that is easy to figure out and it really did the trick.
So thanks Ted for bringing up a great topic that I really learned from.

Now, on to greatness.:R

 

[ted s]

Spud, did you record it ? It would be great to hear you example.

 

[Spudman]

Sorry, no recording. It was a beer of the moment occasion.

 

[SuperSwede]

One fantastic guitarist to check out is George Benson, he often sing and play the same melody at the same time..

 

[f1point7]

this is what i try and do though i must say, i'm no expert...

i use the pentatonic boxes. then i season with major ( or minor) overtones depending on the chords to help color. also i throw in some bluenotes here and there. if these are the colors on an artist's palette, then the brushstrokes are how they're applied. the rythmn/phrasing etc..

this is where i think is the most difficult part to get right. i'm still trying like hell. the biggest thing for me is to actually say something in an expressive way. then i'll copy the rythmn&melody from my voice into the guitar.

charismatic/expressive people all talk with a melody and some sense of timing. btw this aint some **** i came up with.. i read it/ saw it somewhere.. this is also why i believe that it's not about the speed at which you play either. it's annoying when people talk to fast. yeah, i'm one of those who think that the guitar is a substitute for a voice.

one more thing! repeat phrases, and slightly change the ending or the beginning. great speech-givers do this too and to great effect!

hope that helps. it helped me

 

[Spudman]

one more thing! repeat phrases, and slightly change the ending or the beginning. great speech-givers do this too and to great effect!

hope that helps. it helped me

That is a great idea! If you notice some players do that in their playing when playing repetitive phrases. I'm glad you pointed that out.