Power Attenuators??

[duhvoodooman]

The "Amptone Guy" passionately advocates two concepts for getting the optimal tonal performance from a tube amp: (1) the proper use of equalization in the sound chain, and (2) power attenuation. The first one is pretty straightforward, considering that your guitar's tone controls and the tone stack in the amp give you some EQ capability at the outset, and decent, cheap EQ pedals are readily available.

Power attenuation is a bit of a different story. Apparently, some of the early devices left a lot to be desired and soaked up as much tone as power! There are some good ones available now, but they are definitely not what I'd call cheap! The Amptone Guy prefers the THD Hot Plate, though the stuff I've read from him is a couple of years old and there may be newer/better/cheaper(?) stuff available now? Best price I've found on a new THD Hot Plate is a bit over $250, making this attenuator slightly more expensive than my VOX AD30VT modeling amp!

But, while expensive, the benefits sound really intriguing to me. The whole point of these things is to be able to achieve power tube saturation at reasonable volume levels. And since I own a 30W Peavey Delta Blues amp that has never had the volume setting turned up past 3 (out of 12!) because I don't particularly want to end up bleeding from the ears, this would be a great capability to have. Everything I've read says that the truly choice overdriven tones come from power tube saturation, not preamp tube saturation (i.e. high gain settings). Naturally, I'm dying to find out for myself!

So anyway, I thought I'd toss this topic out to the Fretter community and see what comes back. Experiences? Opinions? Other relevant info??

 

[Tone2TheBone]

If it's gonna make you feel good...do it.

I knew this guy long time ago that used to play his Marshall half stack through his Scholz "Powersoak" and it sounded so good. Of course that was in the early 80s. Probably soaked the crap out of his tone too but who cared...he had killer saturation and gain. A chick getter if you ask me. *thumbs up*

edited to add this - Doesn't the amp come with pre and post gain knobs? It's running 3 - 12ax7s right? You can't get a good driving preamp and saturated power tube sound from your amp?

 

[warren0728]

i've never used one but have been thinking about one myself since i got the classic 20. The girls in the house complain when i crank it up and i know the neighbors can hear me too (they have told me and are cool about it).

I have heard good things about the hotplate...but i wouldn't mind finding a less expensive solution.

ww

 

[Nelskie]

The "Amptone Guy" passionately advocates two concepts for getting the optimal tonal performance from a tube amp: (1) the proper use of equalization in the sound chain, and (2) power attenuation. The first one is pretty straightforward, considering that your guitar's tone controls and the tone stack in the amp give you some EQ capability at the outset, and decent, cheap EQ pedals are readily available.

First off, Voodoo, I don't know if I'd be all that concerned about anything the Amptone guy passionately advocates. His is but one opinion - a mere speck of sand on an infinite beach of tone.

The logical starting point would be to read up on attenuators, as I'm sure there are many things to be aware of before implementing one into your signal chain. My guess is that there are load requirements to consider, as well wattage constraints for both the amp & attenuator. Not being familiar with either may end up damaging the soak, amp, or both. That being said, running a piece of equipment that could easily put your precious gear-purchasing kitty in the red is not exactly my idea of a good trade-off, esp. when considering what you might risk if something goes wrong, or you don't use it properly / as intended. Myself, I'd rather not be faced with such issues, and thus, opt to let the real amp gurus and tone afficianados worry about them.

Secondly, your Delta already has a pre-amp control, so like Tone, I am wondering why you can't achieve some good, saturated sounds with your rig's present status quo. I can dial in some very lovely and delicious grind with my Classic 30, and still keep volumes at a reasonable level. As a matter of fact, it starts happening at about 5-6 on my pre-amp control. When coupled with a snarly pair of P-90's, this produces a very desirable crunch that's most suited to lovely beauticians and slammed, V8-powered 30's coupes . . . if ya' dig my drift.

Yes indeed, things like this are always interesting to ponder. We are all seekers of the "Grail Tone", and who's to say if it is trapped inside a Hot Plate, just waiting to be let out??!! Good luck with whatever route you decide to take.

But let me throw this at ya'. If you're really in search of new and different tones, try this - roll off the volume. Yeah, you heard me. Decrease the volume! With all of those pedals you have, there should be no less than a billion or so cool tones just waiting to be discovered!!

 

[duhvoodooman]

First off, Voodoo, I don't know if I'd be all that concerned about anything the Amptone guy passionately advocates. His is but one opinion - a mere speck of sand on an infinite beach of tone.

EXACTLY why I'm asking here. I'm looking for some first-hand experience from people I know & trust!

The logical starting point would be to read up on attenuators....

Which I've been doing. Unfortunately, a lot of what's out there seems to be from sources with a vested interest in selling you one of these things. Which is another reason I wanted to ask here....

Believe me, I have no intention of buying one of these things, at least (at these prices!) not for a good long time. I'm just trying to get a handle on whether or not they really have something to offer a player such as myself who has a pretty severe volume restriction.

Doesn't the amp come with pre and post gain knobs? It's running 3 - 12ax7s right? You can't get a good driving preamp and saturated power tube sound from your amp?

Secondly, your Delta already has a pre-amp control, so like Tone, I am wondering why you can't achieve some good, saturated sounds with your rig's present status quo.

Yes, that's true, and I get some very nice overdriven tones out of it, with the Pre knob set north of around 6 or so. But this gets back to that "preamp tube saturation vs. power amp tube saturation" thing I mentioned. I keep reading that the latter has the better/warmer/creamier/pick-your-own-vague-superlative sound, and I've only experienced the former. And if the preamp overdrive sounds this good, the power amp stuff must be AMAZING! Unless I misunderstand this whole concept, which is, of course, quite possible! Keep in mind that I've owned a tube amp for a little over a month!

If you're really in search of new and different tones, try this - roll off the volume.

I'll certainly try fooling around with that! Interesting idea. You're right--my innate tendency is to try more/louder. It's the American way! R

With all of those pedals you have, there should be no less than a billion or so cool tones just waiting to be discovered!!

Hey, c'mon! I only have six single-effect pedals that I really use, and four of those only occasionally. Bold talk coming from a guy with a POD XT with, what....4.632 x 10 to the 13th power effects combinations??

 

[blogan]

EXACTLY why I'm asking here. I'm looking for some first-hand experience from people I know & trust!

Well, I don't have any first-hand experience with tube amps other than my experience in guitar stores, so my opinion is worth exactly what you're paying for it. But I do like to read about amps a lot. Here are some more links for you to peruse:

Guitar Amplifier Blueprinting has a lot of useful information on tube amps (with some pictures of models thrown in for good measure). He leans to the high-end stuff, naturally, but has kind words for modelling amps as well. Take a look at his page on the best amps, at the bottom.

Maven Peal answers the debate regarding preamp v. power amp distortion with a third option: voltage supply sag. I don't know if Maven Peal amps are still available (it's arguable they were never available, considering their pricing), but the documentation is intersting, nonetheless.

I think the real answer is that whatever tone makes you happy is the best tone. Right now, I'm finding that with a Fender Frontman 25R.

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

Maven Peal answers the debate regarding preamp v. power amp distortion with a third option: voltage supply sag. I don't know if Maven Peal amps are still available (it's arguable they were never available, considering their pricing), but the documentation is intersting, nonetheless.

I think the real answer is that whatever tone makes you happy is the best tone. Right now, I'm finding that with a Fender Frontman 25R.

There is actually a fourth option discussed there; power scaling.

Here is London Power's (the inventors of power scaling) response to Maven Peal :

http://www.londonpower.com/pssc.htm

 

[Nelskie]

Bold talk coming from a guy with a POD XT with, what....4.632 x 10 to the 13th power effects combinations??

Bold talk, indeed. Esp. coming from a guy who has never posted a single clip of his playing on this forum. And lest we forget that I'm also one who enjoys fake, unlistenable, digitally processed tone, and has the occasional (??) tendency to rant!

I, too, am a firm believer in the "American Way", and have followed that Golden Rule very closely for the majority of my years as a player. To me, there seems to be one simple way to quell your curiosity regarding the "tube saturation" subject. Find someplace where you can let that Delta of yours breathe deeply, and let 'er buck. Crank that thing up to "11", and hang on. That'll give you a good feel for what lurks inside that tweed cabinet, and perhaps, whether or not Mr. Amptone's take is worth it's weight in vacuum tubes. If it's creamy and dreamy, as legend has it, then perhaps a Hot Plate is in your future.

In the mean time, have fun disseminating all of that voltage supply sag, power scaling, and other brainiac stuff. My head is starting to hurt just thinking about it.

 

[duhvoodooman]

Bold talk, indeed. Esp. coming from a guy who has never posted a single clip of his playing on this forum. And lest we forget that I'm also one who enjoys fake, unlistenable, digitally processed tone, and has the occasional (??) tendency to rant!

LOL! Hey, you said it, not me! Although I might have mentioned that "no posted clips" thing somewhere....

To me, there seems to be one simple way to quell your curiosity regarding the "tube saturation" subject. Find someplace where you can let that Delta of yours breathe deeply, and let 'er buck. Crank that thing up to "11", and hang on.

Yeah, I suspect that's what it's going to come down to. The neighbors aren't gonna like it!! But they'll get over it.... R

In the mean time, have fun disseminating all of that voltage supply sag, power scaling, and other brainiac stuff. My head is starting to hurt just thinking about it.

Yeah, mine, too. I was hoping to avoid a research project. Thought I might luck out here and get somebody posting back, "Yeah, I tried one of those and it...(worked great; sucked out loud; got so hot the tolex melted off my amp; etc.)" Ah, well....

C'mon, one of you GAS-heads must have tried an attentuator at some point! Talk to me!

 

[Spudman]

You want to crank your amp but not your neighbors? Put a pillow in front of the amp.

 

[Tim]

How about a long extention cord?

 

[blogan]

There is actually a fourth option discussed there; power scaling.

Here is London Power's (the inventors of power scaling) response to Maven Peal :

http://www.londonpower.com/pssc.htm

tOt, wow thanks for the link! I wish London Power would explain power scaling instead of just calling it a proprietary technique. I guess they'd prefer I buy their books. Their reference section is great, though!

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Yes, that's true, and I get some very nice overdriven tones out of it, with the Pre knob set north of around 6 or so. But this gets back to that "preamp tube saturation vs. power amp tube saturation" thing I mentioned. I keep reading that the latter has the better/warmer/creamier/pick-your-own-vague-superlative sound, and I've only experienced the former. And if the preamp overdrive sounds this good, the power amp stuff must be AMAZING! Unless I misunderstand this whole concept, which is, of course, quite possible! Keep in mind that I've owned a tube amp for a little over a month!

Spud actually has a good answer for you. Another option would be to point the speaker/amp toward the floor or some sound dampening area of your home...just so that you hear what it sounds like cranked...then make your choice after hearing it played that way on whether you want to spend the bucks on the attenuator or not.

If you've already experimented with your gain and master volume knobs as you've suggested above. Let me say this...you're not going to get more gain as much as you "think" you might by turning up the amp all the way. Sure the power tubes will saturate at their best...but really you're making the amp compress more and you're boosting the sensitivity of your guitar via the all out volume of the power tubes. This doesn't equal the kind of distortion preamp tubes make. Basically the way you're running it is fine. You're getting a good mix of both power tube output and a little preamp gain to break things up (gain halfway and master past halfway to full volume). I run my Marshall the same way you described, only I run the master full up...using the guitar volume to clean things up.

If you want an attenuator get one. I don't see how it would take away from achieving your sound. But I think you've got one hell of an amp that does a lot already as Nelskie hinted at.

 

[Spudman]

Ya. What Tone said.

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

tOt, wow thanks for the link! I wish London Power would explain power scaling instead of just calling it a proprietary technique. I guess they'd prefer I buy their books. Their reference section is great, though!

Glad to be of help Blogan.

 

[ZoSo65]

Check out Weber, they make some pretty darn good attenuators
They use a speaker motor, which is supposedly the better way.
I plan on getting one soon for my DB.

Weber

 

[warren0728]

interesting link....gonna check it out more thoroughly later.

ww

 

[duhvoodooman]

Check out Weber, they make some pretty darn good attenuators

Problem is, everybody seems to sell these things for $300 or so! Seems like an awful lot for a device basically designed to suck off your output wattage and turn it into heat!!

Uh-oh! I feel dem blooz comin' on....

Wanna buy a 'tenuator, but they cost 300 bucks.
Lawd, I wanna buy a 'tenuator, they all cost $300 bucks.
Only got $3.56 left in PayPal, man this really sucks!
Have mercy....​

When I said I wouldn't do this anymore....I lied.

 

[Spudman]

Lying is the first sign of the blues.

 

[oldguy]

Hi, brother guit-pickers.
For what it's worth, I have a THD 8 ohm hotplate I use with an old Traynor YBA-1 Bassmaster head, a design Pete Traynor pretty much copied off the old Marshall circuit (which Jim Marshall got off the old Fender Bassman circuit). 50 watts all tube completely stock run through a 2x12 Avatar cab w/ celestions, 1 vintage 30 and 1G12-h semi-closed back. With attenuation @ 12db it sounds pretty good, volume set around 5 w/ both channel jumpered together w/ a patch cord. Anything less than 12 db cut this amp will blow yer head off if the guitar volume is wide open. It will get into the nice bluesy realm of harmonic feedback at reasonable volumes that don't leave the neighbors complaining w/ 12 db cut. The hotplate @ 16 db attenuation does not allow you to use the hotplate's level (volume) knob, and sounds kinda "fizzy-fuzzy-tinny", thus I don't use the 16db setting. You have to match a hotplate's ohmage to your amp and speaker cab (8 ohm in this case). For a "dinosaur setup" like this, it works well. I dig the sound. Is the hotplate worth 300+ $? Depends on what your ears like, but I can tell you the newer small wattage amps cranked up will get close to the same sound for the same price without attenuators, pedals and such. I think I may have to get one of the new Epi valve junior heads just to prove this to myself And never hook a Hotplate up to a solid state head. They claim bad things will happen. Hope this helps. oldguy