Removing the tone choking finish

[navvid]

For reasons I'll not get into, my beloved first lady suffered a set of severe gashes in the finish along her lower tail edge. I have sanded to the primer in the damaged areas (though the worst gash actually is well into the wood) and a little around them, but this got me to thinking that since shes no longer cherry, maybe I could try sanding the finish off of the back and sides. I have long wanted to do this, as it is pretty well accepted by those in the know that the thick clear coats deaden the tone of a guitar. As a physicist, I have always thought this made sense since effectively the finish is a layer of hard plastic which should dampen the whole body, and so have accepted it to be true. Also I know a guy with a Strat he sanded raw and stained, and its a tone monster. But that didn't mean I was ready to sand the protective layer off my cherry #1. Now it seems to me that it's a compromise of protection against mainly moisture and impact vs. improvement in tone. Any thoughts guys? has anyone done this? As always, any input is appreciated.

nrn

 

[navvid]

anybody?

 

[Katastrophe]

Actually, the official Fender line is that the polyester finishes used on most of their guitars doesn't affect the tone that a guitar has.

Is that true? I have no idea, after all, it has to do with the guitars Fender markets. All of my guitars are bolt necked, and have fairly hard urethane finishes. I've never had a tone problem with any of them that wasn't mechanical in nature (pickup going microphonic, jack or switch breaking).

I think, ultimately, it comes down to what sounds good to your ear. I think, with a physics background, that a scientific test between a bare wood (unfinished) Strat, one with a nitro finish and one with a polyester finish would be kind of cool, don't you think?

 

[Plank_Spanker]

All of my guitars are bolt necked, and have fairly hard urethane finishes. I've never had a tone problem with any of them that wasn't mechanical in nature (pickup going microphonic, jack or switch breaking).

***************SNIP**************************

I think, ultimately, it comes down to what sounds good to your ear.

True. I've never bought a Strat or whatever and wondered about the finish killing the tone. If I didn't like the tone, I wouldn't have bought the guitar in the first place.

 

[Bloozcat]

It's not that you can't get a guitar with a urethane or polyester finish that has good tone, it's just that all things being equal, the thinner finish will make for a more toneful guitar.

By "all things being equal", I mean that comparing the tone of the same guitar with the different finishes, the thinnest finish will allow that guitar to resonate the most.

I've been really fortunate in that there's a custom guitar shop near me that's owned by a friend of more than 25 years. He's a real tone freak, who has done all kinds of experiments with woods, finishes, and hardware, in pursuit of great tone. He's even done the same with speaker and combo cabinets.

Over the years, I've seen many of his creations that have been finished with both nitrocellulose lacquer, and polyurethane. Since he makes his own guitars from scratch, many of the guitar bodies that I've compared finishes on, were from long planks of the same wood. It's about as close to identical as you could possibly get without using the same body for the comparisons (which I've also seen done as well). In each case, the nitro lacquer finished guitar had the edge over the urethane guitars. In some cases it was very close, and there may have been little enough difference to be concerned with. But, in the vast majority of cases, the lacquer finished guitars had superior tone. As a way of validating his own opinion in these tone experiments, my friend has had many customers play these guitars in the shop to get their reactions. He doesn't tell them which finish is which, he just let's them pick the one they think sounds best. That's what he did with me as well. When you don't know what you're playing, your opinion isn't predjuced by dogma. My friend offers the urethane finish as a lower cost alternative to the labor intensive lacquer finish.

There are always going to be examples of really good tone coming from guitars with the thicker finishes, but those examples are anecdotal without a control for comparison. In those cases, I'd have to believe that the guitar is the beneficiary of a really great piece of wood, that even the thicker finish could not dampen. But, over the years I've come to adopt my custom guitar maker friend's comment when coming accross a guitar like this...."can you imagine what this guitar would sound like with a lacquer finish?" And that is where the vintage legend guitars got their reputations. An exceptional piece of wood, coupled with a nice, thin, aged, lacquer finish.

BTW: The oil finishes are also great at allowing the wood to "breath" or resonate. They're just not as durable as lacquer, and they're somewhat limited in finish choices.

 

[chordshredder]

So it sorta depends on what kind of surprize you have when you get the finish sanded down, eh? 2, 3, 4 oddly matched grains would cause me to go with filler, sanding sealer and finish it with lacquer probably from reranch.com

Even If I lose some tone; I dont care for unfilled grain. Its ok for kitchen cabinets I guess. I geuss if I was going to go whole hog for sustain I would get a Les Paul, the Strat design - easily replaceable neck, floating tremelo does suck some sustain, albeit the springs add some funky stuff, floyd's are supposedly worse. Saw a nice figured maple cap that the grain was filled with black epoxy then stained with alcohol dye then clear lacquered.

 

[Plank_Spanker]

I'm really not that much of a tone freak. I buy and play what sounds good to me - with the aim of playing live with everything I have.

That's not to say that I'm not discerning. I'm pretty picky about my sound, but I buy what sounds good to me straight out of the box. I guess I look at guitars more as tools...................

 

[LagrangeCalvert]

Blooze has some really good points...finishes can and will affect tone, but only to a certain degree. You guitar hardware will affect tone the most....and lets not even go into the amp. How I look at it is this: If the guitar and amp combo that you are using cannot generate the tone(s) your searching for, upgrade your hardware....if that doesn't do it....start looking at the amp....and last but not least (and please do not be offended by this statement...it goes for every player alive) look at your technique. You cant imagine the difference that top of the line hardware can do for a guitar with lack luster tone...

For instance. My two main guitars I gig with are a Epi Special 2 (hot rodded from the rooter to the tooter) and a 50's MIM strat also hot rodded. Both have poly finishes, and I kinda like it....there tough as nails, and sound great. The Nitro finishes and stains are awesome cause they look great when they age and sound good.

I figure if you already have it sanded...to hell with it and try it! The most your gonna loose out of this is a finish, right? Let us know how it goes, and hopefully we can get some sound clips too....

 

[navvid]

Thanks Blooze. thats exactly the kind of input i was looking for. i think some of guys here might have missed my point. its not like i had a "tone problem", or i didn't like my Strat's tone to begin with. i don't call it my number one for nothing. the question is, how much better can it be, and at what cost?

the fact of the matter is, any piece of wood will sound better without a layer of damping material coating it. the problem is if you lose the finish, you lose the protection and beauty of the finish. what i was trying to decide was to what degree i was willing to compromise. as Lagrange said though, i have already started sanding, so what the hell.

i have removed the finish and primer from about 50% of the back and sides, and plan on doing most of the rest (of the back and sides only). it actually looks really nice, especially if you sand all the way through the primer creating a gradiated effect. the primer has a translucent amber color, with the grain showing through a little. i have created kind of a pattern by sanding along the contours.

 

[marnold]

Thanks Blooze. thats exactly the kind of input i was looking for. i think some of guys here might have missed my point. its not like i had a "tone problem", or i didn't like my Strat's tone to begin with. i don't call it my number one for nothing. the question is, how much better can it be, and at what cost?

I think this is precisely the point that most people miss. There really is no "silver bullet". There are trade-offs with everything. Poly finishes might dampen vibrations or whatever the term du jour is, but nitro presents its own problems. It's getting harder to find as more and more states ban it as a carcinogen. It takes forever to cure. Then you can have issues like with George Lynch's tiger guitar where the nitro froze and shattered so the finish looks like broken glass or like it was attacked by giant spiders. Poly on the other hand is near bulletproof as witnessed by those of us foolish enough to try to sand the stuff by hand. Conversely, simply staining or tung oiling will look great and won't dampen anything, but will provide minimal protection.

Really, you could have the nicest nitro finish ever, but if you have crappy wood to begin with or bad pups or old strings or me playing the guitar it won't sound very good anyway.

I am very interested to see how this project turns out and what you think of it. If I had a guitar that was truly my #1, I'm not sure I'd want to do anything with it. Of course, I'm rather conservative, not very daring, and painfully cheap.

 

[Plank_Spanker]

>>>>its not like i had a "tone problem", or i didn't like my Strat's tone to begin with. i don't call it my number one for nothing. the question is, how much better can it be, and at what cost?<<<<<

Engineer, aye?

...........................How can I make this better?

All of this depends on your "musician's ear". Are your ears really up to actually hearing the difference while you play? Are your tastes in tone that discerning that you're going to strip a guitar to see?

Nothing wrong with this at all.............................

I'm just from another school - my guitars are tools for gigs, and "close enough" works very well for me.

 

[Bloozcat]

I'm just from another school - my guitars are tools for gigs, and "close enough" works very well for me.

It's a difference in approach. At one end of the spectrum, there's the modder who is always looking to try something new just to see (and hear) the results (this BTW, is the engineering type ). Then at the other end of the spectrum there's the player who is interested in picking up an instrument that sounds good to him off the shelf and just playing it. And then there's those who fall somewhere in between...modder and player...player and modder.

What makes all of this so interesting is that there's something for everyone, and there's no "one thing" that's right for all.

As Jackie Gleason used to say..."Ain't life grand?"

 

[LagrangeCalvert]

It's a difference in approach. At one end of the spectrum, there's the modder who is always looking to try something new just to see (and hear) the results (this BTW, is the engineering type ). Then at the other end of the spectrum there's the player who is interested in picking up an instrument that sounds good to him off the shelf and just playing it. And then there's those who fall somewhere in between...modder and player...player and modder.

What makes all of this so interesting is that there's something for everyone, and there's no "one thing" that's right for all.

As Jackie Gleason used to say..."Ain't life grand?"

You hit the nail on the head....as I gig twice a weekend and have a modding addiction.....there isn't a guitar that I have that you could even consider stock - the bodies are the only thing on my two gigging guitars that are still stock. Its not that I don't like the tone of the guitars, its just that I like to make them sound exactly like I want them to. My girlfriend on the other hand has a fender 51' that is stock (thanks tremoloman!ude: :AOK: ) but she has ideas for it....

 

[Big_Rob]

Hmmmm, I dont know what to say about the finish effecting the tone.

My Mexi Strat with the guitarfetish.com clearance overwounds sounds awesome (even got complemented on the sound by my Strat guru) and is IMHO full of all kinds of Stratocaster tone.

My AS73 is the same way, but since that guitar is a semi-hollow its got no choice but to have some serious tone.

 

[chordshredder]

Pictures?