Scales

[just strum]

I thought there was a thread around here that Robert started regarding scales, but I couldn't locate it. So I guess I will start one or start a new one.

I've been working on scales for the last couple of weeks and then using BT's to apply them. I was just curious on how many people in the days they were starting and later, practiced scales? I know I've read people comment (not necessarily here, that scales are a waste of time. However, the more I practice them, the more I see the need for them. Once you apply them to a BT, they really aren't that boring as some people claim.

Right now I am just wrapping up the five positions of the minor pentatonic scale.

So, any thoughts and or comments about working/practicing scales?

 

[oldguy]

I thought there was a thread around here that Robert started regarding scales, but I couldn't locate it. So I guess I will start one or start a new one.

I've been working on scales for the last couple of weeks and then using BT's to apply them. I was just curious on how many people in the days they were starting and later, practiced scales? I know I've read people comment (not necessarily here, that scales are a waste of time. However, the more I practice them, the more I see the need for them. Once you apply them to a BT, they really aren't that boring as some people claim.

Right now I am just wrapping up the five positions of the minor pentatonic scale.

So, any thoughts and or comments about working/practicing scales?

Yeah, Mark, here's my thoughts on scales..........

Learn them and practice them.......they're not a waste of time.

It's hard to explain using an analogy, but I'll put it this way...
if you wanted to be a carpenter you'd learn how to read a tape measure, and if all you wanted to do was "rough in" you'd need to learn your tape down to, say, 1/4" or so.
So you'd learn your scales and see how they relate to the chord pattern of the song.

Then you want to be a finish carpenter, and learn your tape down to 1/64th's...........
Now you want to play lead, so you learn your scales, and how to improvise, using what sounds best to you.............
This is not a very good analogy, but it's the best I can do to simplify what I'm thinking.......
Anyway, DO learn scales, and try and see how they relate to chords if you can. It will serve you well later, I think. It did me.
Cheers.

 

[just strum]

What I am finding is an ability to better distinguish notes and how they fit. Using the current scale, minor pentatonic, I am taking it from one end of the fret board. Simple for some, but something I never took the time to do. It also does a great job of reinforcing the knowledge of the fret board.

 

[BluesHowler]

oldguy, I think that's a great analogy. Scales can at times be boring and repetitious but as I progress in my playing I'm so glad that I've spent time learning the scales.

I've done like you said and played with BT's just using my knowlage of scales and I think it sounds good. My dog and wife may think different but both of them like ABBA so I do not take them serious most times.

I do think knowing the scales will make a good guitar player advance to the next level.

 

[just strum]

I've done like you said and played with BT's just using my knowlage of scales and I think it sounds good. My dog and wife may think different but both of them like ABBA so I do not take them serious most times.

Mine likes Barry Manilow. I think you and I need to get together for some practice and jam session.

 

[marnold]

Scales are very important for the vast majority of humanity for whom music is not second nature. People who are born with the ability to "think" music can just "do" it with necessarily knowing why, or caring why for that matter. The rest of us need scales so that we can learn the rules, get intervals into our heads, etc. Then you can break the rules.

 

[mrmudcat]

Learn them its the first thing the boys learned and I try to make them practice them alot:beer:

 

[peachhead]

Scales is another word for boring time well spent. I'm always amazed at how much they come into play.

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

For everything there is a season.

 

[just strum]

Scales are very important for the vast majority of humanity for whom music is not second nature. People who are born with the ability to "think" music can just "do" it with necessarily knowing why, or caring why for that matter. The rest of us need scales so that we can learn the rules, get intervals into our heads, etc. Then you can break the rules.

I'm still undecided about the "second nature" thing. Certainly growing up in a home where music is emphasized helps, but I think those "second nature" people just locked themselves up and studied. They've developed great study skills and are extremely focused. For many of us, at a minimum it ranks a few notches from the top of our priorities.

So, in the mean time, I practice my scales, learn how they apply to music, and just try to have fun.

 

[marnold]

I'm still undecided about the "second nature" thing. Certainly growing up in a home where music is emphasized helps, but I think those "second nature" people just locked themselves up and studied. They've developed great study skills and are extremely focused. For many of us, at a minimum it ranks a few notches from the top of our priorities.

I realize that this is in danger of veering off topic, but here I go anyway. The example I would point to is a family friend who figured out on his own how to transpose any song on the piano into a minor key. This was a little kid too (at the time). Armed with a basic knowledge of theory, I understand how he did it, but I still can't figure out how he could just sit down and play and it would "happen." He never studied one moment of theory.

Veering even further, I've been pleased to see my youngest son really taking to the piano. He will spend all kinds of time beyond his normal practice time trying to figure out the melody for songs or hymns that he knows. When we got my Acoustic amph at GC, he saw a kids'-scale guitar and said, "Hey Dad, I think that one would work for me."

 

[ZMAN]

I have always looked on scales as kind of a boring waste of time as well. I could never "link" them into my solo playing, and it seemed one dimensional to play solos in one position or the other on the neck.
Back in around 1981 or 82 I purchased a Hal Leonard book called "Lead Rock Method" I tried to use it and I found it hard to follow and I really didn't have a lot of time to practice. Jump ahead 20 years and I have the time and I rediscovered this book. Then the light went on. I had always been amazed at how all of my guitar heros could start a run and flow up and down the neck. Improvising amazing solos.
The key to it are three forms of the Blues Rock Scale. The Full diagonal form, the inside diagonal form and the outside diagonal form These are used extensively by Clapton Dicky Betts, Robin Trower, Alvin Lee, Mike Bloomfield, Jeff Beck and Alex Lifeson to name a few.
I have practiced them and use them in my playing. Since I started evereyone who knows me says they can't believe how much I have improved in the last two years. If you can't find this book or reference to the forms I will have them scanned and post them. They really work. What it did to my playing was make me want to get more technical and learn a lot more theory.

 

[just strum]

I realize that this is in danger of veering off topic, but here I go anyway. The example I would point to is a family friend who figured out on his own how to transpose any song on the piano into a minor key. This was a little kid too (at the time). Armed with a basic knowledge of theory, I understand how he did it, but I still can't figure out how he could just sit down and play and it would "happen." He never studied one moment of theory.

Ok, I'll give you that one.

Veering even further, I've been pleased to see my youngest son really taking to the piano. He will spend all kinds of time beyond his normal practice time trying to figure out the melody for songs or hymns that he knows.

Focused and dedicated

When we got my Acoustic amph at GC, he saw a kids'-scale guitar and said, "Hey Dad, I think that one would work for me."

Wonder where he gets that from?

 

[Blaze]

People who are born with the ability to "think" music can just "do" it with necessarily knowing why .

This is exactly my case, playin for 30 years ,i never realy care about learnin theory & scales but i did practice or create licks or just make geometric patterns (biz. biz) on my neck for hours while watchin tv or wathever ..
This way my fingers became agile & effective to soloing.I do know the name of basic chords and a little bit about mode ,but i dont think about it when i play..

I did pratice scales for a while but then i start to play scales instead of soloing.
I think we can say that i m a instinctive & by ear guitar player ,i m no better that anyone,i just play like i play.

Blazes

 

[Katastrophe]

Scales to me are like trying to learn a new language. You have to know how to structure a sentence before you can break the rules and create poetry.

One thing I've wanted to do is make up some neck paper, which is a life size version of the fretboard, on paper. Take all the notes of a particular scale, say C major: C D E F G A B. I'd then go all over the fretboard and draw a dot for each note in the scale, all over the board. I could then create all kinds of shapes and "note clusters," while still remaining in key.

I read about this in an interview with Paul Gilbert, and it makes a lot of sense to me. Of course there are sites that have all the notes of the scales graphically represented, but to me it doesn't help if I don't do it myself.

I dunno, I think it would be a good excercise.

 

[Andy]

as far as soloing,

you can play well without learning scales and modes , but you can easily get stuck in a rut(and stay there) with out atleast an understanding of them.

they are not necessary yet at the same time...essential
plus,,it doesnt take alot of those scales to write the rock/blues/country "handbook".

it's worth learning

 

[SweetSong]

Ok my first question on here! I thought knowing chords and Scales was the most important thing for a guitar player!???? That's what I try to learn about anyway.I got all the major then minor then 7th chords and now alot to add ta that. I guess you guys are saying playing scales up n down are boring?I know they are but that's is not what I wanted to do , I just wanted to know them. Are they not what's used ta make solos n songs? I mean You have to know the scale then use it ta play within it ?? It confusses me ta say I don;t need scales! It's just knowing it up er down the neck I want to know.

 

[oldguy]

As I told JustStrum (Mark) in post #2 of this thread...........here's my thoughts on scales..........

Learn them and practice them.......they're not a waste of time.
I think Kat gave the best analogy so far............

Scales to me are like trying to learn a new language. You have to know how to structure a sentence before you can break the rules and create poetry

While it may be quite true that some players never formally studied scales per se, and never learned each individual scale (maj, min, pentatonic, dorian, mix, etc, etc,) pattern........ when they solo they are using scales, usually combinations of scales. Scales also relate directly to chords..........so the more chord knowledge you have, combined with the more scale knowledge you have, the easier it will be for you to navigate the fretboard, and thus the ability to play what it pleasing to your ears on said fretboard.
True, this can also be done by putting on your favorite music and playing (hunt and peck) 'till you find the notes you want, but if you at least have some rudimentary knowledge of the instrument you will generally get there faster. Amazing, intuitive prodigies.....maybe not-so-much.........

 

[scorona]

I began taking lessons again a couple of months back and my new instructor basically had me utilizing scales from the get-go. Now I use them as a warm-up to start every practice session. They have helped me to find my way all over the fretboard.

A typical warmup ifor me is to play the 5 traditional major scale patterns (picking a different key each day), followed by the same scales ascending 3 notes at a time, then 4 notes at a time, then ascending by some interval (I do 3rds because thats the easiest for me right now). Then, play the same 5 patterns as major 7th, dominant 7th and minor 7th arpeggios. Then I'll play 5 patterns of the pentatonic major and minor in some key. If you add them up, that roughly 45 different scales to play. At first this took me about 30 minutes to get through, now its about 10-15 minutes and well worth it to me because it has helped me quite a bit.