Stuck in improvising...

[barber76]

Hi everyone. Advice needed.
I'm stuck in blues learning. Past half year practice & lessons don't really satisfy me. Let me describe what bothers me:
I currently can play major/minor pentatonics in all five positions along fretboard, can switch between them (I->IV chords), know typical chord sequences, can use a few licks and play smooth a few classic blues tunes.
The problem is with improvising. My improvising isn't out of tune (there are no notes that sound particularly 'wrong') but usually lacks any consistent song context. I don't 'sing' with my guitar, and can't predict how any given note on the fretboard will sound, until I actually hit this note. So it all turns into pentatonic shred and inserting licks which 'should work' over particular chord.
I want somehow to get to the point where I can directly transpose what I can sing with voice to the fretboard. See B.B.King - he is not a technical virtuoso, but what he can sing - he can play. Is there any techniques/exercises to get this intuitive feeling of fretboard?
One pro told me what worked for him - he just turned on the radio, and played along random songs in any genre, concentrating not on soloing, but on reproducing vocal lines with guitar.

 

[Eric]

I think you're on the right track. There are probably a few things that would help:

1. Sing something, then work on playing it on the guitar. Just fiddle around until you find that first note, then it should get easier.
2. Try playing the main melody of the song as a starting point, then maybe develop some offshoots of that in your soloing. Tons of music and solos are developed this way, in my experience.
3. Think up a melody that would go well over the music, like a fully formed phrase, then work on playing that. This is similar to #1, but it's more the idea of deciding what you want to play before you play it.

Others will likely have different advice, but these basic ideas have worked for me, even though I'm still nothing to write home about.

 

[marnold]

It's a bit simplistic, but practice is the key. As your ear gets used to what the pentatonic patterns sound like, your fingers will "learn" what part of the pattern corresponds to the sound you are looking for. I'm getting better at that, but only relatively. I have found myself playing familiar licks on a different part of the fretboard than where I learned them, so something is sinking in. I just haven't learned to control it yet.

 

[Tig]

I'd suggest using a looping station or pedal to build improvising.

A cheaper and very fun way to to play with backing tracks.
http://www.guitarbackingtrack.com/
http://www.guitar-tube.com/jazz_blues/

Edit: It works now...
Here's the exact URL:
http://jammer.net.ru/en/mpjam_blues_misc.html

 

[barber76]

1. Sing something, then work on playing it on the guitar. Just fiddle around until you find that first note, then it should get easier.

^^^ Yep, this sound quite relative to the pro's advice I mentioned. Pretty much no special 'secret' techniques, just playing along with singing, the more the better.

2 Tig: I do jam along backtracks a lot, it helps to some extent. I have a feeling, though, that won't make much more progress unless start practicing 'vocal' play-along.

 

[Katastrophe]

Start simple. If you want to play what you sing, then start with one note. Hold the note until you find it on the fretboard *please don't pass out!*

Then move to two note patterns. Don't be surprised if they don't follow with a strict pentatonic pattern. Continue moving to three notes, then four. Pretty soon, you're playin' what yer singin'!

If phrasing is something you want to learn, try not to just learn patterns. Learn a few solos from other artists, in order to get a feel for it, then try to incorporate your own feel to jamming tracks. YouTube has a ton, in different keys, for free. BB King is an excellent artist learn from.

If your solos turn into shredfests, STOP AND SLOW DOWN. Soloing shouldn't be about running up and down scale patterns. That leads to further frustration, and who needs that! Guitar playing is fun!

Finally, use your time for solos as a way to tell a story. What is the original track about? What emotion or message do you want to convey? That, to me, is the biggest struggle about guitar playing. That struggle is what makes it all worth it in the end, though.

 

[Robert]

Try this, stick to only 3 notes at a time. Try to be creative. Definitely try singing the three notes too. You can do this before you play anything - just noodle something with your voice and copy it with your guitar. Pretty soon your phrasing will improve.

 

[Eric]

Finally, use your time for solos as a way to tell a story. What is the original track about? What emotion or message do you want to convey?

Excellent advice right there. The best solos and leads I can think of do a great job with this.

 

[jpfeifer]

Hi Barber76,

You're onto the right idea if you think that you need for your solos to "say" something rather than just sound like playing through a bunch of scales. In other words, if your solos are "singable" then you're doing what you want to do. That's a very good goal to have.

Sometimes the best thing to do is to listen to those players that catch your ear, and try to copy some of their stuff as a starting point. Try first to just sing some of your favorite passages in some of the solos that you like. (BB King is a really good place to start) If you can sing some of their licks, then it begins to get into your ear (so that you can remember it). Then try to play those licks on the guitar. Use your major and minor pentatonic scales as a guide, but don't rely on them for your solo ideas.

Soloing is about developing a vocabulary of ideas that you can reproduce at will, like you would string together a group of sentences in a paragraph. Sometimes you have to start by copying some ideas from other players first, just to get your ideas flowing. Then you can take those ideas and change them around. Try to get ideas from a few players instead of just one player.

One good source for this kind of thing is to get some "lick" books of different solo ideas. There are some really good ones for Blues, Rock, Country, and just about every style you would want. This can help you to get started with a few ideas that you can string together and get them into your playing so that you don't have to think too much about them.

Good luck in this.
It sounds like you are heading down the right track. Just spend more time learning some licks from other players instead of only practicing the scales. The scales will help you to know where the right notes are, but the licks are what help you to make those scales sound like musical phrases. And, by all means, do a lot of listening to those players who really catch your ear.

--Jim

 

[kiteman]

Use the notes not found on the scale(s).

 

[deeaa]

Well, all I can say is me neither. But I never did feel it to be a problem for me.

I just don't really play leads. I can play pentatonic leads and extended too, quite melodic, OK, but it's not like I plan what I play. I just explore based on what I remember things to sound if I go which way, if that makes any sense.

IF I try to first think and 'sing' what I want to play, sure, it can happen if it's strictly easy blues lick or melody bit that's familiar to me, but whenever I do think of something I want to play like I hear it in my mind, it takes a while to find it on the guitar, and then it also usually transforms a little in the process.

I once did this experiment project by myself, I recorded some 5 songs so that I just made some words, then just listened to 'A' note and then sang the song complete with guitars and everything, pretty much just improvised all parts. Then I just copied the verses and choruses, put the lead melodies in place, re-sang them with right words, and then played the guitar parts to replace my 'sung' guitar demos there.

They turned out quite interesting in a way.
I only have one of them online:

http://deeaa.pp.fi/SaveU.mp3

And this one had no vocals at all, just instrumentation blues...played everything myself.

A funny note: the drums I played by hitting an actual hi-hat but the snare is some plastic toy I hit and I forget what else I have there.

 

[Moander]

I know exactly where you're at... I remember this wall intimately......

I'm going to recommend a few things that helped me immensely.

First, practice the 'less is more' thing....to make things simple, download a few free backing tracks, play them on your computer while you jam along on your guitar. Mix the sound so you sound like a band, where your guitar is loudest so you can hear well.

You need backing to improv, period.

I recommend some I-IV-V blues progressions for now....

I playback the backing tracks with Winamp, and the Slow Me Down plugin which allows slowing down or speeding up the song without changing pitch, and allows you to change the pitch without slowing down or speeding up the song.
This is good so you don't have to re-tune when a backing track is a half step down, and you don't feel like getting another track.....

Work on phrasing, using 3, and 4 notes per phrase. Blues in A, A pent position in the 5th fret, take any 3 notes, and do everything you can to make those notes do different things, using bends, hammers, pull-offs, vibrato, and just hand on those 3 or 4 notes.

You should come up with new ways to play those said 3 or 4 notes...

Next: Add 3 notes to the scale.......

Take the A minor pent, 5th fret.
1-4
1-4
1-3
1-3
1-3
1-4

Add in 2 notes to make it an A dorian, used by most blues players. We're adding a B and an F#, on strings 3 and 4 we use the 4th fret for these notes.

Same position:
1-3-4
1-3-4
1-2-4
1-2-4
1-3
1-3-4

Add in a 3rd note, the Flat 5th, or Blue note:

In the A minor pentatonic, the blue note, or flat 5th, is the E flat note, 6th fret, 5th string, and 8th fret, 3rd string.

A minor pent, 5th fret position, with 'blue note'
1-4
1-4
1-3-4
1-3
1-2-3
1-4

You can combine the A minor pentatonic with the flat 5th, AND the dorian, as one scale.

Play with this modified pentatonic:

5th fret, A minor position: giving notes also, as I'm too lazy to open up a tab program

1-3-4 (a-b-c)
1-3-4 (e-f#-g)
1-3-4 (c-d-eflat)
1-3 (g-a)
1-2-3 (d, e-flat, e)
1-4 (a-c)

Play that over the same stuff you'd play the standard, 5 note A minor pentatonic. Import to other keys, spice to taste.



As a general rule, not every note in a scale is the best for beginning, or ending a phrase. This is determined ultimately by your ear.

Lastly, use these mini-techniques while moving across positions. You may start a run in the 5th position, song in A. A pentatonic, toss in some Dorian notes, get used to that flat 5, but, move into another position while playing. Position transitions open up alot of additional riffs/phrases.

The end point, is, the more you know about how notes sound together, in what combination's, your improv will increase dramatically.

You might consider signing up at the site in my signature. I have lessons there, and within a few weeks, I'll be right at the point you need.

I have chords, strums, and barre chords covered, and the next lesson will be extended chord use, exercises, then, pentatonics, which I will have a great amount of lessons on. Not necessarily trying to plug my site, but, truth be told, I NEED you, to keep me in the right place on these lessons

You're at that place I need to direct my next lessons at.....they're free, and you can help

Good luck in any event, and if you have any questions I can help on, let me know.

 

[Eric]

Add in 2 notes to make it an A dorian, used by most blues players. We're adding a B and an F#, on strings 3 and 4 we use the 4th fret for these notes.

Same position:
1-3-4
1-3-4
1-2-4
1-2-4
1-3
1-3-4

Took me a minute to figure out what you meant about the D and G strings. In case anyone else is confused, I think he meant it like this (easier for me to understand, anyway):

5-7-8
5-7-8
4-5-7
4-5-7
5-7
5-7-8

Thanks for the ideas -- I'll try these out at home when I have a chance.

 

[barber76]

Thanks for advice everybody!
So for I decided to concentrate on following:
1) to my shame, I found that can't sing neither for real nor "in my head" such simple things as ... major/minor pentatonic. The funny fact is that I have Ionian scale set in my mind forever since school years So I spent a few days singing major (which was easy since it's a subset of Ionian) and minor pentatonics in my car while driving to work.
2) spending 10 min, playing Robert's 3-note exercise along backtrack, as a warmup. Btw, Robert, I hope bends are allowed? It's getting too boring without them...
3) Play along blues songs (not backing tracks), trying to duplicate the voice.

 

[Robert]

Yeah, you don't HAVE to stick to ONLY 3 notes for a long time. Could change to 4-5 notes after a while, add bends, and slides, etc - whatever. Just think about creating good phrases with just a few notes, and not running scales up and down. That's the idea with this exercise.

 

[ZMAN]

I found that I learned the outside diagonal form of the blues scale. I find out what key the song is in and play this form improvising in a "call and response mode" to what the guitarist is playing. I started with Buddy Guy, and Gary Moore, and Clapton.
I have a cd player with a remote, and I play the song, then replay it until I get the hang of what he is doing. They all use this form of the scale. I have also used the "as recorded " versions of tab books. They take a specific album and transcribe it note for note in music and tab form. If you listen to and practice the various solos using the remote, you will pick up techniques and riffs that they use, but you can add your style. This way you can hear the note and see it on the tab. It really does work.
I can now put just about any album on and play along with it. My problem is I need the rythm section (backing track).
Oh and don't be worried about playing the same licks over and over. If you listen to the great blues guitarists that is what they do. They just use bends and pick attack to make it sound more emotive. Take Albert KIng for a prime example or even BB. And as stated before practice!

 

[Moander]

Thanks, Eric. I showed fingering, you showed the frets... I should have shown both.....

The lessons on my site will be heading to this wall, and how to break it very soon. It was a major wall for me. Reading Barber's post reminds me of me when I was at this wall.

I was an ape on pentatonics, but all of my soloing/improv ended up sounding like the lead intro to Communication Breakdown after just 30 seconds or so.

Once I broke through this wall, I discovered an easy way to help others break through as well.

A fortunate by-product is that you develop an ear for what sounds right, and where, once you have a few tools in your belt.

One thing I can offer Barber, is, use the less is more approach. Robert hit on it with the 3 note thing. Set up some Blues backing tracks, pick 3 notes in a pentatonic scale.

Do everything possible with those 3 notes, concentrate on slow. Bend notes a half step, whole step, a step and a half even.
Put some vibrato on those notes. Try to hit harmonics on those note positions. Use hammer-ons and pull-offs, start slow, going faster, until you get what's called a Trill.

Using those same 3 notes, add in a 4th note. Then, later on, pick a different 3 notes, later still, add in a 4th note, lather rinse and repeat.

You can literally spend months on just the good 'ol reliable A Minor pentatonic in the 5th position, not to mention the extensions.

By doing this, you'll find that 'singing in your head' will just suddenly appear out of nowhere.

It's all based on your familiarity with the notes, what they produce, how they are altered with effects, like Vibrato, stretches, etc.\

You'll also stumble upon what sounds like crap, and eventually, you'll avoid say an improperly bend note.

 

[Robert]

Thanks Moander.

 

[GuitarAcademy]

Stop doing it the way you have, and consider playing to some minor blues...where it forces you to NOT shred and listen to what you are playing, explore the notes even more and last but not least learn a sense of phrasing, melody and making your guitar "talk". Playing the blues, and not playing blues hero, is a great way to slow it down.

How long should you do this? Do it until you can play a blues solo that moves you. When it moves you, then you've found it.

GA