Sure could use some help understanding chords/keys

[YerDugliness]

Although I've played for quite a while, I have almost never played with anyone else and have never had a lesson. In addition, I got kicked out of the only music class I was ever in ( a funny story for a different thread).

OK, I keep hearing musicians say "It's in B flat", or "It's a I-IV-V in C" (I've learned that means C, F, and G, but that's about all I know).

It's all Greek to me--I know how to make a lot of chords, but have no idea which key they belong in, of if a song in a particular key could have chords from a different key.

So, guys & gals, I'm asking for suggestions. What I've learned so far, I've learned from books, so I'd like to ask for recommendations here.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a book (or books) that would list which chords are in what key? That's something I think I could learn pretty easily; as for figuring out what key a song I hear is in, well, that might be a bit more difficult, but first things first.

Not just books, folks, anyone with who wants to share their knowlege is welcome too, just remember I have very little knowlege in terminology, so make it simple (I often quote a line from the movie Philadelphia, in which Denzel Washington says "Explain it to me like I'm a 6 year old").

Anyway, post away, please--I'm all ears (well, in this case, I'm all eyes!).

Thanks from YerDugliness!

Dugly

 

[Spudman]

I think Robert has covered some of this on his Dolphin Street web site www.dolphinstreet.com. That might be a good place to start. If you don't find anything there that helps then you might want to add it to the 'request for a video lesson' thread on this site http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=3863.
This is a pretty deep subject in my opinion and my typing skills are not good enough to present it all in your thread. Besides, I probably can't explain it as well as Robert or some of the other members could.

The information is out there. Just be patient and I'm sure you'll find some answers.

 

[Robert]

Your question doesn't lend itself to a short and easy answer.

For a book, I really like Edly's Music Theory for Practical People - it's got lots of theory well explained. It answers your questions, plus gives a lot of more solid theory knowledge.

I will try and work some clarifications to your questions, but I'll have to get back to you on that one when I have more time.

 

[250Keith]

The ( Everything Rock @ Blues Guitar Book is a real good book helped me a great deal and I always go back to it.
Take a look at it, you can find it at your local libaray to.

 

[wingsdad]

It ain't pretty, but I put this one-sheet reference chart together ages ago based on stuff I picked up from workshops with other New York City area players at The Guitar Study Center, run by Happy Traum, a name some might recognize from lesson books published in the 60's & 70's.

I've used it as a core piece in teaching, so that's why it's labeled 'Theory Primer' & 'Lesson 2'.

The 'Hand Signals' at the far right were used in studio settings to silently call out the key of the tune. Key of C is 'home', the signal being thumb & forefinger shaping a 'C', holding fingers down or up for the number of sharps or flats from C to call out another key. (why the illogical up for flats and down for sharps? dunno. never asked. I was dumb enuff and you never questioned older cats) Since most of us couldn't actually sight read 'real' music to save our lives, we'd have a shorthand chart for a tune giving us the I-IV-V's, etc., with slashes indicating beats & measures for each chord, but no key specified.

 

[snarph]

that would look a lot better if got pun in a spred sheet

 

[YerDugliness]

It ain't pretty, but I put this one-sheet reference chart together ages ago based on stuff I picked up from workshops with other New York City area players at The Guitar Study Center, run by Happy Traum, a name some might recognize from lesson books published in the 60's & 70's.

The 'Hand Signals' at the far right were used in studio settings to silently call out the key of the tune. Key of C is 'home', the signal being thumb & forefinger shaping a 'C', holding fingers down or up for the number of sharps or flats from C to call out another key. (why the illogical up for flats and down for sharps? dunno. never asked. I was dumb enuff and you never questioned older cats) Since most of us couldn't actually sight read 'real' music to save our lives, we'd have a shorthand chart for a tune giving us the I-IV-V's, etc., with slashes indicating beats & measures for each chord, but no key specified.

Wow, wingsdad--that is a format I think I can comprehend.

I have a question about the horizontal line on the chart labeled "Chords in the key", where I seems to be the "root" chord--II , III and VI appear to be labeled as minor chords and V as a 7th chord.

Does this mean, for example in the key of C, that the II is Dm, III is Em, VI is Am, and V is a G7? Or, are the actual chords in that key listed in the horizontal format for each key (I suspect that the actual chords are listed in each key's horizontal line, as I've been TOLD that I, IV, V in C is C, F, G)?

Just trying to get the most fundamental of grasps on all the info in this chart.

And, Robert, I've surfed into Edly's website and will be ordering "Edly's Music Theory for Practical People" tomorrow. I'll check the local library for that "Everything Rock at Blues Guitar" book, too--thanks for that tip, Keith.

For me, this is the brick wall in my transformation from what my classical guitarist friend calls a "casual guitarist" into someone who can understand the vocabulary in which "real musicians" communicate. I'm SO reluctant to join in with others when I know I'll look like an idiot when they say something like "This one's in the key of Eb", start playing, and I pretend to heard the phone ring so I can excuse myself.

Thanks SO much, guys, for this excellent start :AOK: . Anyone else??????

Dugly

 

[wingsdad]

Wow, wingsdad--that is a format I think I can comprehend.

I have a question about the horizontal line on the chart labeled "Chords in the key", where I seems to be the "root" chord--II , III and VI appear to be labeled as minor chords and V as a 7th chord.

Does this mean, for example in the key of C, that the II is Dm, III is Em, VI is Am, and V is a G7? Or, are the actual chords in that key listed in the horizontal format for each key (I suspect that the actual chords are listed in each key's horizontal line, as I've been TOLD that I, IV, V in C is C, F, G)?

Just trying to get the most fundamental of grasps on all the info in this chart.

Shoot, I wish I really knew how to explain that. :whatever: Maybe somebody who actually knows music theory can come along and do that. Yeah, in C the I-IV-V chords are C-F-G. As for the IIm, IIIm and VIm, if you play the chords that way in sequence, (C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-B-C) you'll hear a nice, natural sounding scale. It sounds good. Play the II, III & VI chords as D-E-A and it 'doesn't leave the door open' to climb to the next note. It sounds bad.

That's my dumb explanation. I ain't Mozart. I taught/teach kids to play stuff they wann play quick. If they wanna know why, I refer them to a 'real' teacher.

 

[marnold]

The way I learned it was actually via Metal Method's level 5. I think Doug (another bonus?) Marks does a great job of explaining it.

 

[kiteman]

In any scale you can stack the 3rds to derive chords for that scale. For example using C major scale:

The C major scale

C D E F G A B C

C E G = C major triad (or chord-very basic)

D F A = D minor " "

E G B = E minor " "

F A C = F major " "

G B D = G major " "

A C E = A minor " "

B D F = B diminished " "

You can stack another 3rd to get a major 7 chord like this

C E G B = C major 7. You can flat the 7 on the chord to make it a dominant 7

C E G Bb = C7

There's more but this is basic enough for understanding about chord constructions. You can do it with any scales.

How do you make a pentatonic scale which is only 5 notes out of 7?

Some say stack the 5ths but all I did was to remove the half steps.

C major scale

C D E F G A B C

C major pentatonic scale

C D E G A

A minor scale

A B C D E F G A

A minor pentatonic scale

A C D E G

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

I'm SO reluctant to join in with others when I know I'll look like an idiot when they say something like "This one's in the key of Eb", start playing, and I pretend to heard the phone ring so I can excuse myself.

Thanks SO much, guys, for this excellent start :AOK: . Anyone else??????

Dugly

Learning anything *always* involves looking like an idiot. You might as well enjoy it. It's great that you are learning theory. I've been learning it along with learning to play. I can't say that I know of an excellent book for the playing guitarist.

 

[duhvoodooman]

that would look a lot better if got pun in a spred sheet

I'm workin' on it!! Here's a start, in GIF format:

(BTW, I highlighted the two "imaginary" notes in yellow)

EDIT 10/16: Added "Circle of Fifths" graphic.

 

[wingsdad]

I'm workin' on it!! Here's a start, in GIF format:

(BTW, I highlighted the two "imaginary" notes in yellow)

Nice work, dvm :beer:
And thanks for pointing out those 'imaginary' notes. Chowderheads like me needed a rap across the forehead with a 2x4 when we'd ask why B couldn't be called Cb...:messedup:

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

Nice work, dvm :beer:
And thanks for pointing out those 'imaginary' notes. Chowderheads like me needed a rap across the forehead with a 2x4 when we'd ask why B couldn't be called Cb...:messedup:

It ain't an imaginary note, B & Cb are enharmonic. That is the same note has more than one name. It depends on the scale & mode which is more natural to call that tone.

Notice how each row has an A, a B, a C, a D, an E, an F, & a G?

Calling it imaginary is a C-major (as well as other scales & modes) centric way of viewing it.

 

[kiteman]

Nice chart but you should note that it's the major scales listed.

Here's something interesting, play a C major scale on your fretboard. No flats nor sharps right?

C D E F G A B C

Move down one fret from C and play the same scale. What happened? You played all flat notes (yes B is Cb and E is Fb). This is the Cb major scale.

Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb

Move up one fret from C and play the same scale. What'd you have? All sharp notes (yes C is B# and F is E#). This scale is C# major scale.

C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

 

[duhvoodooman]

Nice chart but you should note that it's the major scales listed.

Which is why the name of the file is "major_scales.gif"! Wingsdad had it labeled on his original chart, to his credit.

Calling it imaginary is a C-major (as well as other scales & modes) centric way of viewing it.

It's all the fault of those narrow-minded bigots I had for music teachers in school! :reallymad:

 

[kiteman]

Damn, my memory's aweful. :messedup:

 

[YerDugliness]

Nice chart but you should note that it's the major scales listed.

OK, this ignorant fool (that would be ME :messedup:, not you, Kiteman) is getting the idea that this is an incredibly immense undertaking. So, these are all major scales. There must be minor scales, 7th scales, who knows how many other scales?????

So, if there is, say, an Am scale, does that mean that II is a Bm, III is a C#m, IV is a Dm, V is an Em, VI is an F#m, VII is a G#m, and VIII is Am (again)?????

And the 7th "key" is................. :thwap:

Obviously, a chord encylopedia is in order!!

DVM--that chart you made up is nice--this theory beginner thanks you very much for going to all that trouble. The wheel of 5ths is beyond me right now, but hopefully, some day..........

Now, ".....onward through the fog!!"

Dugly

 

[kiteman]

The A minor scale will have the same notes as the C major scale and also the same chords.

Because of that the A minor scale is relative to the C major scale. You can find the relative minor scale of a major scale by starting on the VI of the major scale

C D E F G A B C - C major scale
----------^---

A B C D E F G A - A minor scale
^-------------



G A B C D E F# G - G major scale
----------^----

E F# G A B C D E - E minor scale
^--------------

The major scale and the minor scale are also the modes. The major scale is known as the Ionian mode and the minor scale is known as the Aeolian mode. There are 7 modes. For example with the C major scale

C IONIAN (natural major)
C D E F G A B C

D DORIAN
D E F G A B C D

E PHRYGIAN
E F G A B C D E

F LYDIAN
F G A B C D E F

G MIXOLYDIAN
G A B C D E F G

A AEOLIAN (natural minor)
A B C D E F G A

B LOCRIAN
B C D E F G A B

Same notes same chords but different tonics (roots)

All the above are basic scales and lots of other scales are created by alterations such as the blues scale, harmonic minor, and the melodic minor to name a few.

Whatever scale you're playing with you can find the chords for that scale by stacking the 3rds (R-III-V).

 

[t_ross33]

This Should Be A "STICKY"

Wow! Lots of cool info in this thread. Being pretty much completely self-taught and learning by watching others, I've never really taken the time to dig into the mechanics of guitar. Now that I'm attempting a lead role, and being the only guitar player in our 3-pc, this info is going to be invaluable. I can even understand some of it :AOK:

Keep it coming :beer:

 

[kiteman]

Cool, all songs have a key and a key called home. You leave home, have an adventure and come home.

The tonic is the key. If you're playing the C major scale the tonic, C, is the key but for A minor where A is the tonic the key's still C major. It's known as a key signature.

I know, confusing hey? But remember A minor is relative to C major and they both have the same key.

I picked up a guitar in '97 and got back in playing. The last time I played was in late 70s after my stupid drummer drank himself to death. So when I got back in playing (not gigging) I decided to study theory and one thing I learned is that there's a lot in common and too much to learn. So what I did was learn in one key and learn everything about it. Everything else will fall in soon.

Trust me. ude:

A B C D E F G A - A minor

I learned A minor so let's learn some about A minor. First and most important of all tune the guitar. Don't waste your time playing an untuned guitar because you'll never train your ears. So tune up everytime.

This is where you're going to have to learn where the notes are on your fretboard so find yourself a fretboard chart or print one. Now find all your "A"s. Yep, only the "A"s and play around with 'em but just play only the "A"s. There are songs out there that has only one chord for the whole song but there's plenty of 'em on the fretboard.

Here A is the "I" known as the tonic. After you're satisfied that you know where the "A"s are, let's find the "V" notes or "E"s on the fretboard. You'll soon see where you can find your A5 chords known as power chords. Also known as "root-fives" as there's no 3rds (III) to define it as major or minor chords so it can be played in both.

The "III's or "C"s is next and there you have your triads (I-III-V) which are actually chords. Here, these are Am chords and three types at that:

root position - (I-III-V) where I is in the bass.
First inversion - (III-V-I) where III is in the bass.
Second inversion - (V-I-III) where V is in the bass.

All that for just A minor chords, whew. :messedup:

Now for the other chords in A minor, repeat. :beer:

Learn the D minor and the E minor also and youll have i-iv-v in A minor and be all over your fretboard.

EDIT: whoops, let's change that to i-iv-v since this is minor scale we're talking about. Corrections made.

Some of the artists only know a few keys. :whatever:

 

[ted s]

That was great Kiteman, gotta print that. Thanks.

 

[Justaguyin_nc]

Learning anything *always* involves looking like an idiot.

Someone call me?? :rotflmao:

Hey your right though..
fortunate for us..
alot of people here enjoy dealing with idiots..
nice walk thru's here..

thanks guys..

Signed..
The village idiot

 

[ted s]

Maybe our villages are close ?

 

[jpfeifer]

Hi,

(I hope this is not redundant, I haven't read all the posts so far)

Learning about keys and chord progressions all boils down to understanding the major and minor scale.

If you take any note of the major scale you can make a chord out of it by stacking 3rds. For example let's say you have C major scale. You can make a chord by stacking every other note of the scale on top of your given scale note. Lets' say you start with the note C. If you stack 3rds on top of C you get C E G. If you look at the notes in this stack they make the sound of a C Major chord.

In the same way you can stack notes on all of the other notes of the C Major scale. If you look at the series of chords you get the following series of chords :

Note of the scale: Chord type:
----------------- -------------
1 = C C-E-G = C Major
2 = D D-F-A = D Minor
3 = E E-G-B = E Minor
4 = F F-A-C = F Major
5 = G G-B-D = G Major (or dominant 7)
6 = A A-C-E = A Minor
7 = B B-D-F = B Diminished

The main point of this is that the pattern of chords is the same in any key. The only difference is where you start the pattern. For example, if you play an A Major scale and use each note of the scale to make chords, they will be the same pattern of chords. Those chords would be A Major, B Minor, C# Minor, ....

If you look at the note number (i.e. 1, 2, 3, etc) it will always map to the same type of chord (Major, Minor, Diminished) in any key. For example, the 1 chord is always a Major chord if you are using the series of notes from a Major scale. The 5 chord is always a Dominant 7 chord and so on. So in the key of A, for example, the 5 chord would be E7.

When people call out a chord progression using numbers (e.g I-ii-V) they are referring to these note numbers on the left. For example, a I-ii-V progression in G major would be G Major - A Minor - D7

I hope this helps demystify the idea of keys and chord progressions. This same technique can be applied to Minor keys as well. It's all a matter of using a scale, creating chords from each scale tone by stacking thirds and this determines a series of chords.

-- Jim

 

[Spudman]

Jim

Thanks so much for explaining that. That is the best version I have been able to get my mind around and now I FINALLY understand. Thank you.:beer:

 

[jpfeifer]

Just to clarify one more thing ... in the example that I gave I only stacked enough notes to make basic triads (e.g. C-E-G) If you continue stacking 3rds on each scale note you get the richer chords such as C Maj7 versus a basic C Major chord. Here is a more complete table that spells out the chord types from stacking 3rds on top of each major scale note:

Staying with the C Major scale example you get the following:

Scale note:
----------
1 C-E-G-B = CMaj7
2 D-F-A-C = Dminor7
3 E-G-B-D = Eminor7
4 F-A-C-E = FMajor7
5 G-B-D-F = G7
6 A-C-E-G = Aminor7
7 B-D-F-A = B Half Diminished (a.k.a Bm7b5)

Once I started to understand this it was like having a secret decoder ring for understanding song structure. If you're never sure what key you are in it's often useful to look for any Dominant 7 chords in the tune. Generally the Dominant 7 chords always resolve to the 1 chord of the key, even in minor keys. There are always exceptions to these rules but you will find this to be true more often than not. The other thing this helps you do is to see chord progressions as they relate to the key of the tune and not just a bunch of random chords that happen to sound good with each other. If you look at chord structure in songs you will start to see common chord progressions that are used over and over, for example 1-4-5 (or I-IV-V) is used alot in blues tunes, I-vi-ii-V, ii-V-I, etc.

In Nashville the studios started to write chord charts for songs using the chord numbers instead of the actual chords to make it easier to change the key of the song to suit the singer, and never have to re-write the chord chart when the key was changed. They called this the Nashville number system.

-- Jim

 

[tot_Ou_tard]

. The wheel of 5ths is beyond me right now, but hopefully, some day..........

Dugly

No, no Dugs don't run away from the circle, it's fundamental.

A semitone (or half-tone) is the smallest increment in western music. On a guitar the difference in tone between adjacent frets on the same string is a semitone. A whole tone is 2 semitones = 2 frets.

The major scale pattern is

W W H W W W H

where W represents a whole tone and H represents a semitone (H for half).

For example the 7 tones of the C major scale are

W W H W W W H
C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

From what I said you know that a semitone is the smallest increment, so that tells you that there are tones between C & D, between D & E, between F & G, & between G & A.

These are C# = Bb, D# = Bb, F# = Gb, and G# = Ab.

All # (sharp) means is move a semitone up and b (= flat) means move a semitone down. This is why Fb = B because there is only a semitone (note the H) difference between E & F.

Now for the circle of fifths. A fisth (often called a perfect fifth) is the difference between C & G (note the 1 under C & the 5 under G).

A fifth is fundamental in western music. A major chord is the triad 1-3-5, so
a C major chord has the notes C, E, & G in them (usually more than one of some of those). A power chord is just 1-5 so if you want to hear what a fifth interval sounds like play power chords.

So we have started our circle of fifths

C -> G

whats next?

To determine that you have to look at the G major scale

Here are all 12 notes

C, C#= Bb, D, D# = Eb, E, F, F# = Gb, G, G# = Ab, A, A# = Bb, B

(& then back to C)

to determine the G major scale do the WWHWWWH dance but start at G

ie skip a note for every W

we get

G (skip) A (skip) B (no skip) C (skip) D (skip) E (skip) F#
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
(& then back to G)

Thus the G maj scale has one # & in music notation you can recognize the key of G by the fact that it has one # (in the place corresponding to F) on the ledger lines.

So right away we see that a G major chord has the notes G, B, & D in it.

We also see that a fifth up from G is D.

So the circle starts

C -> G -> D

Next you would write down the D major scale by starting at D & doing the WWHWWWH dance. Eventually you would get back to C. A circle! Ta-da!

Try it for yourself.

Not so hard once you get the hang of it. Remembering all that while you play is another story entirely Good luck & don't give up; it's confusing for everyone at first.


----------------Edit------------------

Yikes! I have just seen that others have already posted a bunch'a theory, but it never can hurt to hear this stuff over & over again.

 

[YerDugliness]

You guys don't realize, but in a few short days you have taught me more about music's structure than I have learned in almost 59 years.

Keep it up, guys--I have a lot of catching up to do.

Yes, you are right, tOta, this is confusing, but that is part of the challenge for me--I'll be reading over this over and over till I understand it. I'm a motivated learner!!!

Thanks so much, guys--you have no way to know how much I appreciate it!!

Dugly

 

[Lev]

Great info guys, definitly worth a Sticky methinks!!