The PA Is Killing My Tone

[Tim]

Hello To All,

I need some information on a small problem I am encountering. I play in a small praise band. There is just myself and a keyboard player. The PA system that we use in an older model. There are 4 input channels with their own volume, bass, treble and reverb controls. Each channel has its own high and low impedance input. There is also a master gain and reverb control. There are 2 mono outputs at 100 watts each with drive 2 speakers each with a 12 inch woofer and a tweeter.

Here is my problem: I am using my Squire Tele Custom with 2 humbuckers. I run the signal through my Digitech RP 100A directly into the PA system.

When I use the high impedance input my tone is very tinny (lacking bass). If I dial in more bass with the RP 100A or PA system, then my signal is too boomy. I also must really turn up the volume on the input channel to be heard.

When I use the PA system and the low impedance input, my volume is ear piercing high. I must turn the channel volume of the PA down to 1 ½ (the keyboard uses the low impedance channel and the volume is set at 6). The output volume of my Digitech is set at 10 (normal is between 40-60). My guitar volume must be turned down to 1 1/2, but my tone is excellent.

Now I have given this all much thought. I do have some electrical theory and experience. I understand that the keyboard will perform at a much lower frequency than the guitar. My thought is that the circuitry for the high impedance is filtering my tone and may be killing my lower frequencies.

When I use the low impedance input, the PA is amplifying an already hot signal coming from the humbuckers and also the Digitech RP 100A. There must be something I am missing here.

I am new to guitar amplifiers and modelers, and believe there has to be one or two other factors that I maybe overlooking. Could there be some internal setting on the Digitech that needs to be adjusted? There are several: compressor, EQ, Amp modeling, gain, cabinet, noise gate, etc.). But as I said previously, I lack the knowledge and skill.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have been trying to solve this issue for over 6 months.

Thanks.

Tim

 

[Tone2TheBone]

What are your tone knobs set at on your channel on the board? Are they set in the middle? Did you try setting both your PA channel and the unit's eq to middle settings and then hear what that sounds like?...tweaking as you play with the group? Even readjusting your Digitech eq before it hits the board? Are you running it in stereo or mono? Any effects?

It would be cool if someone was playing your guitar with the group while you went past the speakers to listen to the sound. Anytime I've played through a PA...even miked I had to do that. Was never happy with my sound through a PA. Usually found that I had to do a couple of things on the board...

1. I always either set my board eq all to 12:00 straight up

2. Or I had to turn down my eqs to 10:00 or lower to help compensate for too loud of a signal boost on some frequencies. (usually I just adjusted my output on the amp and could hear myself through the PA anyway as an ambient tone).

Anytime you run direct to the board you're going to get a different tone. Yeah your sound is degrading. I could never get good enough line level signals going direct like that either. Maybe someone else has a good solution.

 

[Tim]

Hello T2TB,

Thanks for chiming in. Yes to the questions about EQs at “0”. This is both for the PA board and Digitech modeler.

I like the term “degrading” that you used. It hits the nail on the head.

I have given this more though since I first posted the “help” call. There are 2 possible scenarios.

1. The high impedance of the PA input circuitry is acting as a by-pass circuit killing the tone

2. The low impedance input does not affect the tone. It sounds great, but the hot humbuckers and Digitech out put signal is being over amplified by the PA system.

I am going to try to turn down the internal Amp modeler’s gain and volume to see what effect it has on the overall loud volume while using the low impedance input for the PA board. Hopefully this should tone things down. Presently the gain is at 57 (range goes from 0-99) and the volume is at 90 (range goes from 0-99).

Since we are breaking for Thanksgiving holiday next week, it will be two weeks before I get to test this theory.

Thanks again.

Tim

 

[Justaguyin_nc]

I could never get the Tinny out of digital boxes till I got a tube preamp.. don't know if this would help you or not... Behringer Ultragain MIC200 warms all the recorded tones from the digital boxes I have and adds some depth to them.. ofcourse just my opinion.. before that..everything recorded from them sounded to digital and "tinny" or as you mentioned..dialing down to boomy.. note: Vox's digital box Tonelabs I think they call it..actually shows their tube on the panel..must be something to it... if nothing else the glow..

 

[Katastrophe]

Hey Tim,

My other guitar player has the exact same Digitech unit (and uses longer cables), and we have practice tonight... I can let you know something in the morning!

 

[Tim]

Excellent! I can't wait.

 

[Katastrophe]

Okay, I reread your intitial post and gave it some thought last night while we were practicing...

We both use the master volume on our Digitech units to control overall volume. My amp is set on the clean channel at about 1.5 to 2. Volume and Tone knobs on the guitar are all the way up for most songs, with the idea that we get a full sound out of the guitar and Digitech, and keep the amp (or in your case, the PA) set low. My other guitar player keeps his master volume on the Digitech set in between 40 and 60, depending on where we're at and if we're playing with a drummer.

I had to readjust my settings last night, as the bass was too boomy as well. I just used the EQ to dial off a little low end, added a little midrange and dialed up the treble to get the sound I needed. On these units, dialing in the EQ is essential for getting the right sound and compensating for any deficiencies in the pickups. Keep the EQ on the PA set to 12 o'clock, and use the Digitech for dialing in the sound...

www.digitech.com has some user defined presets that can help get you started. Go to "Sound Community" under your model, and there is a ton of info! I almost ALWAYS modify the stock presets. They are usually pretty weak, and are nowhere near the capability of the unit. There are tons of amp choices, and you have to fiddle with each of them to get the right setting. Pick a preset that you like and start modifying one feature at a time. It's probably gonna end up being louder than your other presets, but you can fix that with the master volume for the preset itself.

I think you are on the right track. You may have to dial down your master volume on the PA, and have your keyboard player turn up just a bit to keep your levels close... Keep in mind as well that going straight into a board and out a PA system is gonna make your sound boomy, especially if you play in a big area like a church. You are going to have to tighten up the reverb (to the point of maybe using none at all) depending on how big the room is, the amount of shiny reflective surfaces, etc. Also, keep in mind that dialing in your sound direct to a PA may sound dry and "tinny" when played through a practice amp somewhere else...

It's definitely doable, but it's gonna take a lot of trial and error, working with each effect one at a time... I've played direct before, but I tend to like to put a mic in front of the amp. That way I can get a good sound level and use the board to even out levels between the other instruments and singer.

Also, a 30 foot cable can degrade your sound! I used to use the longer (and cheapie) ones, and I've found that the cheaper brands sometimes don't have the quality control, or sometimes use inferior metals in constructing the wire. I stick to 15' cords and haven't had a problem since.

Are you able to move your setup closer?

Hope this helps!

 

[t_ross33]

Checkout THIS forum and thoughts regarding using Full Range Full Response systems/amps with moldelling pedals and MFX.

You should have no problem going directly into a PA system, I run mine into a Peavey 4CH with no issues (in fact it sounds better than thru an amp - see above).

Try to run from your line/headphone out to the PA, or take your unbalanced signal out to to a DI box which converts it to a balanced signal then to the PA. Behringer has a good one.

Don't know if this will help or not, but might be worth a shot.

Trev