Why doesn't Marshall make some models anymore?

[Eric]

...or do they?

All I hear when it comes to Marshall is Plexi, Plexi, Plexi. Or maybe JCM-800 once in awhile. If I've read correctly, Plexi refers to the stuff after the Bluesbreaker (JTM45?) amps and pretty much up to the JCM-800, right? Like the JMP series? Or the...Super Lead 1959? I'm not that sure about this part...

So why now does Marshall not make these amps? You can still buy reissues of most of Fender's famous amps, right? I think you can buy new Vox AC30s. The Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier is still in production, isn't it?

It would make sense if Marshall was making money off of this demand for amps that are no longer made, but the only thing it's doing is building their name -- if all of the amps are used, they get no profit from the sales.

Is it some lost technology? Are the materials no longer available? Are the JCM-2000 DSL and TSL and JVM410H as good as the old ones, but nobody realizes it?

I obviously have some knowledge gaps here, but can anybody help me understand?

 

[markb]

JMP is the abbreviation they used during the plexi era. A Super Lead 1959 is a plexi but it gets complicated because Marshall changed the cabinets more than the insides of the amps. The 1959 (and its little bro 1987) was made in JTM, plexi and JCM style boxes.

Marshall's reissues tend to the "handwired" and very expensive.

Personally I think Marshall have far too many ranges for these depressed times. I think they'll start dropping some before long.

 

[Eric]

JMP is the abbreviation they used during the plexi era. A Super Lead 1959 is a plexi but it gets complicated because Marshall changed the cabinets more than the insides of the amps. The 1959 (and its little bro 1987) was made in JTM, plexi and JCM style boxes.

Hmm. That is confusing. At least I was right about the JMP thing. Yay me.

Marshall's reissues tend to the "handwired" and very expensive.

So they do make them? I did not realize. I guess they're just priced out of most people's ranges? I did a quick search and they look to bump up against the $4000 mark, which is....yeah....a lot of money.

Personally I think Marshall have far too many ranges for these depressed times. I think they'll start dropping some before long.

Meaning too many model lines? It's a bit of a chore browsing their site, at least for the uninitiated like me.

 

[markb]

Too many model lines indeed. Here's a screen shot of their product range. Confusing? Not arf!

 

[deeaa]

Well, it's always been like that. Impossible to produce umphteen variants in one factory...they will keep cutting the number of models I'm sure.

As far as newer models...the only thing I worry about JVM etc. new amps is how will they last, as they contain a LOT of complex technology. When I think of buying a big guitar amp, I expect it to last 20 years plus without much maintenance and 40-60 years in total. I dunno how will these super-complex bread-makers fare in the long run.

But as far as the sound...yes, I do think people will at some point hold them in just as great a regard as we do a plexi etc. It's all a matter of generations and taste...even now there is a change going on...a few years back the demand was at its peak for old style Marshalls, while there were still many players active who wanted the sounds of their youth, i.e. 60's or early seventies. Which is funny, because I should be one of those guys, but I always thought them old bands like Rolling Stones, Zeppelin, Free, all that stuff sounded pretty awful in guitar tones and good sounds really only emerged along with Sabbath etc. and many modern bands have great sounds these days.

Now it's changing and I see a lot of ads by people looking for 900 series amps or trading their JMP for an 800 or 900 or even DSL series and JMP-1 preamps. I think.

That would be another good thread btw...I wonder why do people look for sounds of Zeppelin etc. because, honestly, when you really think of it, isn't it so that the music is great but if you imagine them using more modern sounds, would it not have been infinitely better? Zeppelin with Danko Jones sounds, now that would kick some serious ***! I can't even listen to many 70's albums because the guitar sounds are like buzzaws, but often their remastered versions are entirely different and sound absolutely great. I have a few ACDC and like ZZ Top albums that sound HORRIBLE and then the same albums in remastered versions which are pretty good.

 

[Matt]

you've hit the nail on the head for me Deeaa, I don't get why people rave on about Page's tone and spend huge amounts of money to get it when it sounds so messy, unpleasantly fuzzy and rough round the edges. Purely subjective of course... :french It could just be that I'm young and like smoother sounding dirt, but a lot of classic tones are just not that great to me. Cleans are a different matter all together though...

 

[deeaa]

A lot of it has to do with how people used to listen to the stuff.

I don't think everyone happens to consider that back in the day P.A. equipment and especially home music systems used to sound like utter c**p in most cases. Hell I used to listen to music via a mono tape recorder for several years first.

Now on THAT equipment many of the old sounds work well. Take that old ACDC for instance; on those poor mono decks their guitars cut thru and screamed like no other. Enter digital age and near absolute purity; dynamics range jumped from like 30db to 100db in a few years, and when old players maybe achieved some 11.000Hz max new systems go to 20K.

So now when all the nuances are revealed, the sound is horribly glassy and bright, and way too screechy. THAT is the reason ACDC like so many other older bands keep releasing 'remastered' versions of their old hit albums. And when you're discussing sounds on something like remastered Led Zeppelin collection, you've got sounds that have been processed a dozen times further from what was recorded way back. No use trying to achieve that using the original equipment.

I like to listen to 80's hard-rock and heavyrock off an old cassette deck and boombox in the basement...when I listen to the same stuff on MP3 thru my home system, it just sounds dated and the sounds aren't too hot. But when I crank that boombox...well that is what the music was mixed for! Stuff like Van Halen and Twisted Sister or whatever - it works best on a cranked boombox, not the best possible hi-fi system.

Modern music, top-10 stuff, however, seems to work best off MP3 players...probably mastered that way. On a really good stereo system most of the music today is very very tiring to listen to because it's so heavily compressed the ear is under a terrible onslaught of constant 0db level fullrange wave of sound. Can't do that for long. MP3 players and earplugs are much better for listening that stuff.

All in all, yeah, I think it's being very shortsighted if you attempt to achieve that sound you remember more than hear from the 70's using the original equipment...you'll probably get much closer to how it sounds on record using a modeling amp than the original gear. Remember, even those old recordings have certainly been mixed and compressed and miked in amazing configurations, not to mention remasterings for CD format and so on...it's just folly to to to recreate them by going to the source. And either way - nostalgia and personal preferences from childhood experiences aside - when you listen to it objectively, if you can, I don't know if anybody can claim those old sounds really are even any good. I know there is hardly espacing the fact that when you get old, you tend to get stuck in what you used to like. Old dogs don't learn new tricks, it's the young only who have the spirit to find new and better things when old cronies just stay and wallow in the same old stuff. At 40 I feel like it's trying to get a hold on me too, but I still manage to keep an open mind and love the new stuff as well, or more.

Gimme Foo Fighter or Danko Jones or Billy Talent guitar sounds ANY day over pretty much any guitar sounds done in the past.

 

[DeanEVO_Dude]

...yes, I do think people will at some point hold them in just as great a regard as we do a plexi etc...

Do you think that is more because they will become "legendary" amps, or because there are no plexi's left?

 

[deeaa]

Do you think that is more because they will become "legendary" amps, or because there are no plexi's left?

Oh no question...the former...because the player's heroes are playing those amps. Besides, a plexi is easy to build...it's just evolution.

 

[tunghaichuan]

Do you think that is more because they will become "legendary" amps, or because there are no plexi's left?

That is and excellent question.

I've seen this phenomenon with silver face and black face Fender amps.

I started playing guitar back in the mid '80s. Back then, BF amps were still relatively inexpensive and plentiful. Most players sneered at SF amps because they didn't sound as good as their BF counterparts. It was the same with 70s strats. Fender truly made some hideous sounding/playing guitars in the 70s. Anybody who wanted a fender strat got a pre-CBS strat and sneered at the post CBS strats. Players who couldn't pony up the cash for the good stuff bought the crappy guitars and amps and made do.

Today, now that collectors have snapped up all the really cool, collectible amps and guitars, players are turning to the later crappy guitars amps as an affordable solution. A lot of them seem to have some type of collective amnesia because I distinctly remember SF amps and 70s guitars as being crappy compared to their earlier pre-CBS counterparts. So the SF and 70s guitars are now becoming collectible.

 

[deeaa]

Oh yeah, many now actually look for 70's fenders and SF amps at least here and they collect much better prices than new amps. It goes around.

When I was 20 or so, I could get a Twin for a few hundred bucks...sold my last Fender amp, a DeVille, for mere few hundreds. Marshalls cost like a new car, fenders were dime a dozen. Now they fetch at least five times that.

 

[DeanEVO_Dude]

That is and excellent question.

I've seen this phenomenon with silver face and black face Fender amps.

I started playing guitar back in the mid '80s. Back then, BF amps were still relatively inexpensive and plentiful. Most players sneered at SF amps because they didn't sound as good as their BF counterparts. It was the same with 70s strats. Fender truly made some hideous sounding/playing guitars in the 70s. Anybody who wanted a fender strat got a pre-CBS strat and sneered at the post CBS strats. Players who couldn't pony up the cash for the good stuff bought the crappy guitars and amps and made do.

Today, now that collectors have snapped up all the really cool, collectible amps and guitars, players are turning to the later crappy guitars amps as an affordable solution. A lot of them seem to have some type of collective amnesia because I distinctly remember SF amps and 70s guitars as being crappy compared to their earlier pre-CBS counterparts. So the SF and 70s guitars are now becoming collectible.

That, sir, is a most excellent point. From what I have read, the average guy that wants a "vintage" [whatever], almost has to go with the "newest" vintage he can afford, right. Since nothing lasts forever, those pre-CBS instruments are getting very rare indeed, thus, very pricey. The amps, are a little more rare, due to electronic failure and such, plus, less of them were made (as a per model, rather than number of amps total). So as a result, the collector (casual) / player who wants to have a "vintage" instrument, buys an early or mid '70s vintage amp/guitar due to price.

On a side note, were they really that much worse than the pre-CBS stuff? Are they better than the Mex. stuff now? better than the USA stuff now? Somewhere in between? Why are they so desireable today, when 10+ years ago, not so much (besides having moved into the status of "vintage")?

Some thoughts to ponder and debate...:rockya

 

[deeaa]

That, sir, is a most excellent point. From what I have read, the average guy that wants a "vintage" [whatever], almost has to go with the "newest" vintage he can afford, right. Since nothing lasts forever, those pre-CBS instruments are getting very rare indeed, thus, very pricey. The amps, are a little more rare, due to electronic failure and such, plus, less of them were made (as a per model, rather than number of amps total). So as a result, the collector (casual) / player who wants to have a "vintage" instrument, buys an early or mid '70s vintage amp/guitar due to price.

On a side note, were they really that much worse than the pre-CBS stuff? Are they better than the Mex. stuff now? better than the USA stuff now? Somewhere in between? Why are they so desireable today, when 10+ years ago, not so much (besides having moved into the status of "vintage")?

Some thoughts to ponder and debate...:rockya

Yes, interesting indeed! I suppose with guitars it's more about the antiquity aspect than anything. Why does a 17th century table cost thousands - is it better in use than new ones? No, it's just antique. The same with guitars for a large part. I don't think in most all cases they are any better or worse than current production. However, only the best instruments have survived, and in that sense you're much more likely to find a great instrument in an old one that has survived unmodded. The bad ones have been used for parts or something long ago already.

In amps, I don't really see much difference. You can certainly find an old plexi head clearly cheaper (say around 1000;-) than a new JVM head for instance, or any other modern head, which can cost a few thousand at best.

You can get a nice JCM800 for 750-900 and you can have a plexi or 800 copy built point-to-point for the same money and get an even better amp. This probably stops them going higher in price...there's nothing in amps like woods or something that would 'improve with age' except maybe old tubes, but those are just spare parts. Funny enough, while Fenders used to be dirt cheap they now cost more - but then again they ARE usually combos with reverbs and speakers and such and maybe naturally worth more than the usual Marshall head. Still I can't help going OMS WTF? now and then when I see like an old Twin going for two thousand when just a decade ago I sold mine for about a tenth of that...oh well...

Now the 900 series seem to fetch up to a thousand, and 6100 series also.

 

[DeanEVO_Dude]

... However, only the best instruments have survived, and in that sense you're much more likely to find a great instrument in an old one that has survived unmodded. The bad ones have been used for parts or something long ago already. ...

Or, perhaps, they were not the best, even for their time, and for that reason, they were not played very much, put away and were stored fairly well and survived the onslaught of time... At best, an ultra-rare occurance, to be sure. Food for thought.