Your new assignment -- find an amp that fits this description

[Eric]

Here are the specs I want:

• combo amp
• 1 x 12" speaker
• small and lightweight
• XLR line out
• solid state
• cheap (under $200-250)
• more than enough power (50+ watts SS)
• used is fine

All I'm looking for is a clean tone and headroom. Something like a Fender Deluxe 112 Plus if it had a line out or the amp I use at church right now (Kustom Quad 100DFX) if it was lighter, smaller, and cheaper would be fine. Don't really even need a dirt channel, since I wouldn't use it.

Any suggestions?

 

[markb]

Tech21 Trademark 60 but it might be a bit over your budget. The Roland Cubes have a great line out too but you'll need a DI box for XLR. A used 60 will give you a choice of three really good clean tones. JC, Fender and Vox in decreasing headroom order.

 

[Tig]

If you didn't need the XLR output, the Fender Frontman 65R would be a worthy candidate.
http://www.fender.com/products/search.php?partno=2316000010


Model Name:Frontman™ 65RModel
Series:Frontman Series
Type:Solid State
Output:65 watts into 8 ohms
Ohms:8 ohms
Speakers:
1-12" Special Design 8 ohm, 75 watt Speaker,
Channels:
Two Selectable Channels (Normal and Drive)
Features:
Two 1/4" Instrument Inputs,
Dedicated Volume and Tone Controls in Both Channels,
Effects Loop (Preamp Out, Power Amp In),
Footswitch Jack (For Remote Drive Select with Optional Footswitch),
IEC Grounding Type Power Supply Cord

Controls:
Normal Channel: Volume, Treble, Bass,

Drive Channel: Drive, Volume, Channel Select Switch, Treble,
Mid, Mid Contour Switch, Bass, Reverb,
Footswitch Jack

Effects Loop:
Preamp Out, Power Amp In,
Covering:
Black Textured Vinyl with Silver Grille Cloth; Chrome Hardware; Blackface Control Panel
Weight:32 lbs. (14.5 kg)
Dimensions:Height: 16.8" (42.6 cm),
Width: 18.75" (47.3 cm),
Depth: 9" (22.9 cm)

 

[wingsdad]

Tech21 Trademark 60 but it might be a bit over your budget. ...A used 60 will give you a choice of three really good clean tones. JC, Fender and Vox in decreasing headroom order.

:AOK Naturally, I 'second' that suggestion...since I think that markb & I are the two T21 TM60 owners around here...and, true, a used one in good shape in your price range isn't very likely, but I found mine, about 3 years old 2 years ago for $300. Besides the best 'fake' tube tone your ears will perceive, you'll also get a top-notch Accutronics spring reverb tank and either a Celestion Seventy 80 speaker, or if older, the T21 Special Design...a Seventy 80 made for T21.

Check out the sound clips while you check it out here:
http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/amps/guitar/trademark60.html

 

[deeaa]

Third for TM-60...incredible amp, properly U.S. made quality and very nice tone indeed...gotta love 'em Techies, especially for rock/driven tones.

*might* be hard to spot one for the price but sometimes I see bargains.
Even the small TM-10's sometimes fetch over 300 easy, though. But I have seen a TM-60 for 200 something not that far back.

 

[Eric]

Tech21 Trademark 60 but it might be a bit over your budget. The Roland Cubes have a great line out too but you'll need a DI box for XLR. A used 60 will give you a choice of three really good clean tones. JC, Fender and Vox in decreasing headroom order.

This would be ideal, and I've lusted after Tech 21 amps for quite a while, but my intent was for putting together an econo-rig, where I just use the Sansamp GT2 for the amp model and line out to PA through the XLR.

I didn't realize they could be had for as low as $300 used; I may reconsider my stance.

 

[Eric]

a used one in good shape in your price range isn't very likely, but I found mine, about 3 years old 2 years ago for $300.

Found one on craigslist that looks to be in great condition for $300.

Provided I buy it, I think this means I will perhaps need to start selling some of my inventory. Hrm.

 

[deeaa]

You could sell the sansamp since you get the exact same tones from the TM-60 anyway. Albeit it'd be a bit more to carry if you use it for home D/I recording.

 

[wingsdad]

Yeah, Eric, while I got that great deal on mine (it was a guy's practice amp, so it hadn't been knocked up) I've seen T60's on 'the bay' for around 3 bills often; new, it's a $600 amp so that's not impossible. You just don't see many used in stores. They don't tend to get traded in.

While the DI is SansAmp technology on the T60, it's more about how 'true' and 'uncolored' the output signal it delivers. The T60's a different bird than the GT2 unit or Trademark 10 or T30. Those use the original SansAmp 'matrix' of amp/speaker cab/character sims as their roots to creating a customized tone generator, while the T60 doesn't attempt to emulate speakers/cabs. Yeah, the T60's 2 channels are dubbed or considered 'Fender-like' and 'Brit-Like' because they're intended to sim Fender's classic 60's amps on one and an AC30 or a Marshall on the other. But once you get into how to make subtle adjustments, yes, you can get the tones of a GT2.

The T60's DI is great for home recording; because of the true headphone out, you can pump a wall of stadium-filling sound out, in silence, without waking the kids, annoying your wife or bringing the neighbors bashing on your door and calling the cops. Yet, even the 1x12 model is plenty loud to play club gigs or serve as your stage monitor while pushing your sound to a board in bigger venues.

mark & I have said it many times here: you don't need a tube amp to get great tube sound. You just need the right SS amp, and having played Fender & Peavey tubes for 20+ years in my prior life form, this amp does what they did without the maintenance hassle and hernias.

 

[deeaa]

mark & I have said it many times here: you don't need a tube amp to get great tube sound. You just need the right SS amp, and having played Fender & Peavey tubes for 20+ years in my prior life form, this amp does what they did without the maintenance hassle and hernias.

...the right SS amp or a good plugin for your DAW...

 

[Eric]

While the DI is SansAmp technology on the T60, it's more about how 'true' and 'uncolored' the output signal it delivers. The T60's a different bird than the GT2 unit or Trademark 10 or T30. Those use the original SansAmp 'matrix' of amp/speaker cab/character sims as their roots to creating a customized tone generator, while the T60 doesn't attempt to emulate speakers/cabs. Yeah, the T60's 2 channels are dubbed or considered 'Fender-like' and 'Brit-Like' because they're intended to sim Fender's classic 60's amps on one and an AC30 or a Marshall on the other. But once you get into how to make subtle adjustments, yes, you can get the tones of a GT2.

Well, I usually avoid stating my stance on this, because I've already said it so many times, but it goes like this:

• I can't really justify spending much on high-end gear, considering my playing in church brings in $0. My playing level, while competent, also does not merit expensive gear.
• I don't think most people in an audience notice tone the way the performing musicians do, so I think the tone-snobbery thing is slightly overblown.
• I believe that, with the amount of modeling and DSP (or...ASP, in the case of T21) present these days, there has to be a simpler and easier way to get good tone than by lugging around a 4x12 and 100w head.
• I have a Crate V50, which seems to be somewhat comparable spec-wise to a Hot Rod Deluxe. It's almost 50 freaking pounds.
• I am so lazy that I don't want to lug that 50-pound amp from the storage closet and onto the stage every week.
• In church, I've had pretty good results by either 1) using a $170 Boss ME-50 in front of the Sansamp GT2 going into the Kustom SS clean, 2) using a mic'ed V50, or 3) just using the GT-2 into the input of the Kustom clean and messing with the controls for dirt levels.
• I love the fact that the aforementioned Kustom has an XLR line out. I use the amp strictly as a monitor for me that I can control, in that I don't care what the tone of the amp is -- I use the GT2 for all tone-related controls. That way, the Kustom acts as a powered monitor and large DI box, so the GT2 output goes right to the snake/FOH.

I bought a Crate Powerblock because I thought it could fill the role and even fit on pedalboard, but I have yet to get a cab for it, and decent ones apparently aren't cheap.

Bottom line? I contend that tube amps, while nice, are overblown and heavy. I'm looking for a tidy, light way to get decent tone and conveniently pass it into the PA, which is what IMO matters anyway -- it's about the tone the audience hears. I think I've found that with the GT2, and that's why I was asking this question to begin with.

It sounds like the TM60 is a really good SS modeling amp, and my experience with Tech 21 thus could not have possibly been more positive. If I can score a TM60 for $300, it seems worthwhile, even if it's kind of tangential to my current stance.

I guess I'm just tempted by what seems like a good product. If you've followed along to this point, you will understand that ultimately, a good amp like the TM60 is not really what this thread was asking about, but perhaps it's a good solution anyway.

I apologize if my thoughts are not overly organized. I'm just trying to convey how my brain came to this point. I have about 5-6 stompboxes, 2 ME units, 2 amps, and some other junk, but I have not yet found that simple, convenient answer that I know is out there. I think I do understand at this point what tones I like, which is a start. I just think there has to be a better way than full pedalboard/tube head/cab/SM-57. That setup is not impressive to me -- it's just self-indulgent.

Perhaps I just don't yet understand.

 

[deeaa]

Eric,

I get you 100%.

I think a TM-60 might well provide all you need, except delays etc.

But as for myself...I find that while I usually seek much the same as you do...it's very elusive indeed. Even when I find a great setup, I find myself longing for a better/handier one at some point. And then again, I often look back in regret for selling something I really liked. Like the 3 unit rack with a Marshall JMP-1, a boss multiFX unit and a 120W SS poweramp and a 4x10" cab. Man that was a sweet compact rig...all the sounds I needed and great D/I sound as well.

With my 'big' tube rig I've decided I'm sticking with it - some days I might find it lacks something (like FX) but I just keep with it and the next day it sounds great as is again.

But I always also think...if I were just starting and needed to get *everything* at once and in a sweet easy package, I'd most likely get me a TM-60 and an Am.Std strat and a wah, and I'd stick with that.

 

[Tig]

• I don't think most people in an audience notice tone the way the performing musicians do, so I think the tone-snobbery thing is slightly overblown.

There's a lot of truth to that statement. Most listeners couldn't tell a Custom Shop Strat from a Squier, much less from a Les Paul, or a Line 6 Pod from a Carr or SLO-100 unless you A/B'ed them and told them they are different (volume levels aside). I've been able to create some specific tones from my modeling amp that I just can't do with my tube amps, and vise-versa.

However, on the players end, not only to the ears, but the touch sensitivity and dynamic response can easily be felt between say, an SS Peavey and a Blues Jr., etc. We can feel and hear the difference between a maple and an ebony fretboard, and the difference between Lollars and Tonerider, but the listeners may not have the slightest clue.

In all fairness, I'd guess that most of us couldn't tell the difference between some components or tone woods if we were blindfolded.

I'm always looking for the best tone and playability for the buck kinda items.

...Just sayin'... ancake

 

[Eric]

In all fairness, I'd guess that most of us couldn't tell the difference between some components or tone woods if we were blindfolded.

Exactly. I will honestly say that, while some can probably tell the difference, I can't. I'm not there right now. I'm sure Wings' G&L beats the crap out of a lot of (most all?) cheaper guits, but I simply don't have the expertise to know, so why spend the money or brainwaves?

I'm always looking for the best tone and playability for the buck kinda items.

Me too, and convenience and practicality have crept in as MAJOR players in this equation for me.

To your point, yes...that touch sensitivity/OD breakup 'shoulder' in tube amps is great, but it's not really something I miss all that much when I don't have it. I refuse to try to refine my tube-amp palette just because I think I should, as in "all good players know that..." That feels too much like all-the-cool-kids-do-it/junior-high-level antics to me.

 

[Eric]

Perhaps I was a bit harsh on this one. I do have a conscious backlash against the all-too-common if-you-don't-have-tubes-you-must-suck vibes, but I think that in the end, I just like stuff that's simple and not too expensive. One could argue that a blues jr. and SM-57 are simple, but...I don't know. I feel like it's not versatile enough or something (e.g. if your amp is your PA).

 

[Tig]

I've been able to create some specific tones from my modeling amp that I just can't do with my tube amps, and vise-versa.

The various tones we seek can be achieved through so many different paths, there is no one correct answer. I love that we have so many choices to suit our needs and budgets. We are indeed lucky these days!

I love tube amps, yet I also love the flexibility of a good SS multi-effects system/modeling amp, etc. I'm also a realist... I know I'll likely never have the money to buy $3000 guitars and high end boutique amps of rack effects, so I do as much research as I can on the viable options to give me the most pleasure, functionality, and good, solid tones I can afford.

 

[markb]

"Edge of clean" breakup? TM60 does that. Channel 1 is very tactile and takes pedals very well. Strictly the amp is an emulator not a modeller.
If you want something to add the speaker emulated XLR thing to other amps there's this.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/GI100.aspx

Disclaimer: I'd normally avoid Behringer products like the plague but their DI boxes aren't bad at all.

 

[tunghaichuan]

If you want something to add the speaker emulated XLR thing to other amps there's this.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/GI100.aspx

Disclaimer: I'd normally avoid Behringer products like the plague but their DI boxes aren't bad at all.

I've got one of those, it is sturdy enough and only runs about $50US. The 4x12 cab sim has an on/off switch so you can use it as a DI box sans the cab sim.

The H&K Red Box is better built and sounds better, but it is about $120US.

 

[Duff]

Amp

I had a Behringer GM110 stolen from me a few months ago. It was a great little amp and had an XLR out and was analog amp and cabinet modelling. Very nice ten inch speaker amp, with good reviews on harmony-central.com.

This amp is supposed to be an exact clone of a Tech 21 amp. It is thirty watts solid state, no tube, no effects. There is a newer version that has a bunch of presets, etc., and is not as nice an amp, no xlr out, etc., no ground lift.

This amp can be found on the internet new, doing a google search, for 99 dollars. It is a real good, dependable by my experience, amp that gets real loud.

Some people here at the Fret have them and maybe they will chime in.

You might want to check it out. Way better than the usual Behringer items.

Here is one link where you can get one cheap:

www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=GM110

http://www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=GM110

 

[Eric]

"Edge of clean" breakup? TM60 does that. Channel 1 is very tactile and takes pedals very well. Strictly the amp is an emulator not a modeller.

What do you mean about emulator vs. modeller? I got the go-ahead for a $300 TM60, so I think your sell job worked...

If you want something to add the speaker emulated XLR thing to other amps

Not really, but thanks.

 

[markb]

It's not digital, Eric. It's all done with analogue eq, clipping and compression.

Fair enough on the DI box but it's a rare amp that has XLR out.

 

[Eric]

It's not digital, Eric. It's all done with analogue eq, clipping and compression.

Gotcha. Just wasn't sure what the difference was in terminology.

Fair enough on the DI box but it's a rare amp that has XLR out.

Well, the point is that I do plan to get a TM60, so it's not like I'm disregarding you. The debate I was having with Tig was just about the whole gear-snobbery thing in general. I thought I was pretty clear about my opinions in this thread.

 

[markb]

Shall we start again, Eric? Sorry if I appeared to be arguing with you. I'm not. If you want a demo I'll make a vid with the TM60. Just give me a day or two.
Any particular sort of guitar you'd want to hear? I have a tele and a 335 copy on hand. My strat's currently at the tech's.

 

[Eric]

Shall we start again, Eric? Sorry if I appeared to be arguing with you. I'm not. If you want a demo I'll make a vid with the TM60. Just give me a day or two.

I just re-read our conversation. Funny how seemingly neutral comments still have a lot of wiggle room when it comes to interpretation, isn't it? Anyway, sorry about that.

If you wouldn't mind a demo, I'm sure I (and other fretters) would appreciate one. Thanks for the offer.

 

[deeaa]

Yep I tested some of those small Tech-21 copy Behringers and I was also quite taken how good they sounded. But I haven't seen them since. Thing is, I just don't trust Behringer quality. I've had over a dozen of their products and by and large they all suck 4$$ sooner or later, in one way or the other.

However their G100 D/I is indeed a really nice box especially for the money. I have also had the RedBox and honestly, I like the G100 emulator better, albeit a tad too dark. But one of my favorite AC/DC or rock style sounds I get real easy by mixing the Tech-21 D/I sound and the G100 emulated sound of the same together, they VERY nicely complement each other.

I also used the RedBox and the G100 together in the same manner, the RedBox sound is sort of similar to Techie D/I sound - very nice but kinda bright without any EQing.

As for the tube feel when playing...I like that, sure...but of late, as I've posted elsewhere, all I use now for guitar recording is plain signal from my electric, I just imagine all the sounds as I play completely direct to DAW with the guitar, and add all the sounds later with Amplitube 3. And so far, I've been amazed how well the imagining thing works too. You tend to throw much courageous pulls and bends when imagining how it should sound it seems...and they sound surprisingly good when 'amplified' later, I'm, not at all sure I could achieve the same results with any amplifier sound...because, perhaps ultimately, the amplifier's sound affects *how* you approach your playing. If you have high gain, you damp a lot and so on...but if you do it entirely by imagining and a clean sound, you're not hampered by these things, and as a result you may end up with totally fresh sounds and ideas.

I've only recorded like 4 songs that way, but it sure seems like the way to go for me now.

 

[deeaa]

Maybe you've seen some of my Tech-21 vids I've posted; here's a couple:


both of us using TM-120's


My TM-10


My Tri-AC

Summa summarum - I think I've gotten pretty much the same sounds from any of the above amps...I suppose all Tech-21 line gear would be much the same. Although a TM-60 and 120 give better cleans than the small 10.

EDIT: funny enough, the vids here are in reverse time order, and the guitar used is the SAME in all of them. In the lowest one it was still blue&regular size and the neck pup was attached with tape alone, in the middle vid it was all worked over, planed smaller and sanded and painted and pups properly mounted, new smaller plexi etc...and in the first one it's in its current form, having been beat and kicked around the training facility floors and drawn on and scratched etc...but the same axe!

 

[markb]

Vid links no worky, Dee.

 

[deeaa]

Thanks markb 4 the heads up...fixed it, now they work!

 

[Duff]

Tech 21

Sounds like a great choice.

Analog modeling and cabinet modeling is supposed to be way warmer sounding than digital modeling. Most of the modeling amps are digital I think, like Vox'es, line six, etc.

Analog is supposed to be a way better approach but the amps seem to have a lot less models, but the ones they have sound better and are probably way more dependable than the digital modelers.

Bet that's a great ss amp.

 

[wingsdad]

Found one on craigslist that looks to be in great condition for $300.

Provided I buy it, I think this means I will perhaps need to start selling some of my inventory. Hrm.

If you get the 36-lb. T60, you may find you can bid adieu to the 50-lb. Crate V50 and recoup part of the T60's cost. I'd suggest hanging on to the GT2.

FWIW, I probably misused the terms 'emulate' and 'simulate' in describing the T60 vs. the GT2 and maybe even confused the issue. So, my bad. Send me to the corner with a dunce cap for syntactical abuse. To me, anyway, they're kinda interchangeable terms that simply don't mean 'digital model', but apply to analog.

BTW: Thanks for singling out my ASAT as an example of a snob guitar.