Gibson / Epiphone SG

[Nelskie]

My heightened interest in Eric Clapton's pre-70's tone can be attributed to a number of things, but mainly two in particluar: me owning an Epi Les Paul, and my Pod XT. If you don't know any history about the evolution of Clapton's sound, I will tell you that he was at the headwaters of the Gibson / Marshall tone combination (referred to as the "woman tone"), which in turn, set off a guitar sound revolution of biblical proportions. Clapton, of course, could pick & choose pretty much whatever he wanted to play, but during mid to late 60's, he was camped firmly under the Gibson banner. Several of his primary guitars during that time were SG models, and that in particular is what has recently tweaked my curiosity.

When I started playing back in the early 80's, the only prominent player I knew of who used one was Angus Young of AC~DC. Of course, I loved his sound, and AC~DC's music. However, being totally engrossed in burgeoning hair metal thing led my own tastes away from buying more traditional instrument. As the 80's became the 90's, and I delved further into my craft, I started discovering more and more players who wielded the trusty SG: Pete Townshend of The Who; Tony Iommi of Black Sabbath; Duane Allman of the Allman Bros., as well as the Cream-era Eric Clapton. If you ask me, that's a pretty substantial line-up of guitarists, not to mention a major-league catalog.

I've read about comparisons of the SG's tone to the Les Paul, but in listening to stuff from the aformentioned players / bands, I can't say that I totally concur. While the SG can grind like the Les Paul, it registers to my ear as a brighter sounding instrument, with bit more flexibilty in the midrange tones. The SG & LP both have substantial wood body slabs, with the LP being a bit thicker. Now the know-it-all types writing for various magazines will tell you that the girth of a guitar has nothing to do with sustain, but my own senses tell me that it does - along with the wood type. The 60's era SG's and LP's also shared the dual-humbucker, dual tone / volume, three-position selector set-up, and with that, I would assume some of the same electronics & p'up combinations. These are just a few of the things that come to mind off of the top of my head. The truth is that I'm dreadfully curious to explore this comparison further. If anything, blame good equipment for bringing me to this juncture in the road, most notably that evil little red bean called the Pod XT. Line 6 has done a wonderful job modeling the tones from a number of legendary, vintage Marshall rigs, and to anyone looking for a more cost-effective solution to getting a good Marshall fix vs. mortgaging the house to buy the genuine article, I'd say to look no further than the Pod XT.

Anyways - I'm just wondering if there are any Fretters who've had experience playing an SG, or who might know a bit more about it - tone, playability, etc. I'm already quite enamored with its lore, as well as the players it counts among its faithful.

 

[6STRINGS 9LIVES]

Nelskie I've been thinkin about sg's lately as well, I owned one back in the 70's, a walnut standard with mini hb's , i loved the neck very small great for small hands and light as well .. I think you are right in that they are brighter and deliver a tight focused tone , there are lots of choices here , 70's gibsons seem to be very reasonable in the used market and some say that the sg was the only decent guitar that gibson made in the 70's , also the tokai's have always gotten great reviews and have escalated in value over the years .. i've picked up a few of the epi's at various shops and they seem like pretty good bang for the buck , but once again there is the pick-up replacement and electronics quandry .. its useless to replace the pickups on japanese guitars with out replacing the pots and switches so maybe a used gibson from the 90's for about 750 becomes a real option when total cost is looked at .. when i think of sg tone i always hear the ringing who chords and snarl of ec's cream days ... i think of glen buxton of alice coopers band with that white 3 humbucker custom grinding on under my wheels .... yeah baby that was a cool looking guitar ...6s9l

 

[duhvoodooman]

Clapton, of course, could pick & choose pretty much whatever he wanted to play, but during mid to late 60's, he was camped firmly under the Gibson banner. Several of his primary guitars during that time were SG models....

Geez, I always thought he played that SG because nobody in their right mind would ruin a beautiful sunburst LP with that psychedelic paint job!

I started discovering more and more players who wielded the trusty SG....(including) Duane Allman of the Allman Bros.

Really!? I did not know that! Never saw any pics of him playing anything but an LP. Interesting!

I've read about comparisons of the SG's tone to the Les Paul....

I read someplace recently that the SG was conceived of as a replacement to the original LP body shape and was supposed to get the LP name, but that at the last minute, Gibson decided to offer it as a separate model. If this is true, it would explain why the two models have a very similar (even if not identical) tone.

If anything, blame good equipment for bringing me to this juncture in the road, most notably that evil little red bean called the Pod XT.

Nah, it's more fun to blame you! More accurate, too!

I've never played an SG, unfortunately. Last week when I was trying out Squiers at Guitar Center, there were two SG's sitting right at the end of the row of amps where I was playing. I almost picked one up and plugged it in, and now I wish that I had. But I have a feeling that we're all going to hear about how an SG plays and sounds very soon....from you!

Trivia Contest: What does SG stand for? (Nelskie, you can't answer!)

 

[Nelskie]

69SL - You dawg - somehow I kinda' knew that there was an SG hanging around your neck at one point or another! You make a very good point about buying a Gibson vs. an Epi, and certainly, it's something that makes complete sense. Yet, to get my feet wet, I'd really have no problem with an nice Epiphone model. It would be similar to my Tele experience, in which I started out with a solid Squier Std. model, and modded it to my liking. After I'd played it for a year and some change, and knew for a fact that it was a guitar I could be really happy with, I sold it on Ebay, and stepped up to a G & L. Tone-wise, you're also right with equivalating the cost of the mods: two good p'ups will run you around $175, and the various pots, switches, tuners, etc - add another $100 - $125. With a purchase cost of around $400, you're right around seven Benjamins, so finding a good used Gibson model might be a choice to consider.

And yes indeed, it is that same EC Cream-era tone that leaves me swooning, light-headed, and considering the many ways I could implement another guitar-buying coup. Aaaah, those long, delicious, sustained lines of the solo in "Sunshine of Your Love"; the grinding rhythm and punctuated fills of "White Room"; the spacey pshchedelia of "Strange Brew". With as much fuss as folks make about Clapton's now-trademark Strat tone, his Mayall / Bluesbreakers & Cream stuff, IMHO, is the more impressive body of work.

*sigh* . . . if only to dream.

 

[Nelskie]

Voodoo - Enjoyed your reply. There's some interesting history behind EC's "Psychedelic SG", which can be found under the Clapton Gear thread I'd posted here a week or so ago:

http://www.thefret.net/showpost.php?p=3780&postcount=1

As for Duane Allman, he played both the Les Paul & SG models, though he is most commonly associated with the Les Paul. I've attached a couple of snaps below showing Mr. Allman hard at work, with SG in hand. I cannot answer your trivia question either, but am very interested to know its meaning.

Perhaps time will tell if an SG will find its way into my stable. Until then, I'll be satisfied to dream about it, and enjoy the music created by the legendary players who have called this instrument their own.

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Bro, I owned 2 of them at one time. One was a mini humbucker model like the kind 6S9L owned cept it was red and had dot inlays. I also had the walnut SG equipt with humbuckers and I could kick myself for letting that one go. Both were cool but that walnut one was really beat up and worn like your favorite pair of jeans. Chaulk one up (or down) for being a poor college student.

I think you should get one.

 

[duhvoodooman]

Hey, cool photos of "Skydog" there, Nelskie! I notice he's playing slide in both. Maybe he kept an SG with an open tuning for gig slide work??

Yeah, I'd seen that Cream thread previously, and browsed through those links, for old time's sake. My first exposure to EC was by some HS classmates who were in bands, and were blown away by "Fresh Cream" went it first came out. They talked about all three of those guys like they were gods, especially Clapton (JUST like the London graffiti said, huh?). I bought the record and after that, I was hooked. I distinctly remember thinking how cool that psychedelic SG was on the Disraeli Gears album cover. AAMOF, that was the first guitar model I ever lusted after, but changed my mind when I saw his LP on the back of the Mayall "Beano" album. Somehow, it just looked more dangerous! And I loved his tone on cuts like "Double Crossin' Time". Those were the days, yes they were....

According to Wikipedia, SG = "solid guitar". That's a pretty major letdown, huh??

 

[Nelskie]

TWO SG'S?!! Ouch, that hurts. Man, I bet there were some fat, tasty tones out of Ol' Brownie. Mercy sakes, she's my brownie downtown.

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Nel - Yeah 2. I had them briefly..and I do mean briefly. I traded the mini humbucker one for that Deluxe LP that I had (again briefly also). The walnut SG in my memory now was so good I am weeping now thinking about it. It was like finding one of those beat up aged guitars that just feels so good. If I can remember I think I sold it really because one of my friends just HAD to have it and because I had just traded the other one for the LP and I was all into that guitar. And of course I needed money so......

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa

So go get one for yourself and never sell it ever. EVER!

 

[Nelskie]

"SG" - I was thinking: 1.) super guitar (close); or 2.) sexy goddess (she does have some alluring lines, dont'cha think?) And yes, I second the motion on the "Beano" album - dangerous is a very accurate description of both the guitar, the playing, and the tone. Although I was but a wee lad when EC was the man with John Mayall and Cream, when I did eventually discover those bands for myself (during the early stages of the Nelskie post-metal phase, around 1990), they hit me like a ton o' lead. And to this day, I have yet to recover from their staggering effects. Dynamite stuff, for sure!

Tone - Did you have a name for "Brownie"? Or did the guitar-naming phase come later?

 

[Tone2TheBone]

The naming came way before this. I never had time to bond with those babies unfortunately. *sniff sniff*

 

[SuperSwede]

A bit about the SG history (taken from Vintage Guitar Magazine)

"In 1961, Gibson replaced its Les Paul series with a new line of lightweight, ultrathin, all mahogany, double-cutaway solidbodies Ð the SG (for solid guitar). Developed under the aegis of Ted McCarty and introduced as the "new Les Paul," the SG heralded new directions and a new marketing emphasis for Gibson; trends exemplified only two years later with the introduction of the radical Firebird guitars and Thunderbird basses, available in custom colors. The SG Standard model, centerpiece of its line, is a Cherry Red guitar, and early-'60s examples with factory finishes in other colors are not very common. Original '61/'62 Les Paul Standard model SGs (LP/SGs) in colors other than red are even more rare."

 

[Tone2TheBone]

Super Swede - Is this the same McCarty as the Paul Reed Smith - McCarty fame? If so I can understand why the SG sounds special. While my PRS isn't a McCarty the slightly thinner mahagony bodies do sound like Gibson SGs. They have their own unique sound. Bright and midrangy...yet tight on the low frequencies. The PRS McCartys are thicker bodied though.

 

[SuperSwede]

Sorry, I dont know if that one is the same McCarty....

 

[duhvoodooman]

Nelskie, what are you waiting for! On sale for less than $600, including hardshell case:

Epi Elitist '61 SG Standard

Review by Guitar One

Sorry--the devil made me do it!

 

[Nelskie]

Voodoo - You're an evil man.

I'm still "mulling over" the idea of acquiring an SG, and will undoubtedly have to play a few before I make any decision. Sounds like a good Saturday afternoon project for upcoming weekend!

 

[duhvoodooman]

Voodoo - You're an evil man.

Thanks. I try!

I'm still "mulling over" the idea of acquiring an SG, and will undoubtedly have to play a few before I make any decision.

I suspect that the only real decision to be made at this point is "Which one??"

 

[Nelskie]

Umm . . . ahhhh . . . yeah.

Really liked the look of Epi G-400 Deluxe SG, with the vintage 'burst finish, and flamed-maple top - something other than the typical SG finishes, i.e. Dark Cherry and / or Black. The vintage white w/ the triple p'ups is nice, too, but I'm not a fan of the gold covers or hardware. Of course, that could be changed . . . ?

http://www.epiphone.com/default.asp?ProductID=26&CollectionID=3
http://www.epiphone.com/default.asp?ProductID=27&CollectionID=3

We'll see how things shake down with a test run down at the shop this weekend.

 

[duhvoodooman]

The vintage white w/ the triple p'ups is nice, too, but I'm not a fan of the gold covers or hardware.

Wow, that one really does look like the one Glen Buxton played with Alice Cooper, except I don't recall it having the gold hardware.

Looking forward to your impressions after you've had a chance to play a couple of SG's. Hope your descriptions of the experience aren't too enticing though, 'cuz another GAS attack on my part might land me in divorce court!

 

[6STRINGS 9LIVES]

Wish ya never brought it up now dont ya pal....My take on it would be to go for the gibson, you'll always git your dough back , that epi will be on ebay in two months for 250.00 ..aint nothin like the real thing baby, taint nuthin like da real ting...6S9L

 

[Spudman]

Hey.
"The Man" himself just joined the pantheon of Gibson SG owners this last weekend. He bought a new one at the Guitar Center in Denver. He only played it during sound check which is where the photo comes from. It sounded very juicy. Tons of tone, but then again Roine could make a telephone pole sound good. Go for the Gibson.

Photo is of Roine Stolt of The Flower Kings. Resides in Uppsala Sweden.

 

[Nelskie]

Sweet Little Sixteen

Wish I never brought it up? Heck no! This is a guitar forum, and that's what I'm here to do - talk about guitars. More specifically, talk about guitars I like. And me like SG!

Ya' know fellas, I dig your vibe on the Gibson thing. The reasoning 69SL outlined in his first response makes perfect sense. However, my take on it is a bit different. For starters, I'm a proud Epiphone owner, and the fabulous Les Paul model I have has been the cornerstone of my own tone for over (16) years. All that time, been nuthin' but truckloads of mojo, sass, and attitude comin' outta' her. Even with all of my other axes, the dudes I jam with still equate my sound with that guitar. And I'd like to think that particular connection has nothing to do with a name on a headstock.

I'd also tell you that not once during those (16) years have I been even the tiniest bit inclined to upgrade to a real Gibson. And I've played plenty of the genuine articles to know where the differences lie. I truly feel that Epiphone offers guitarists both solid value and quality. Add to that the ongoing love affair I have with another great piece of Epiphone gear - my Valve Jr. amp, and I guess I'd probably tell you that I'd feel like a two-faced dog if I didn't at least give an Epi SG a try. If I decided to purchase one, I'd also do it through MF, or Music123, where there's a return policy. Me no like, me send back. No worries mon!

Resale is mute point for me. I buy to play, not to resell. And if I do end up selling off stuff off to upgrade, I usually take good enough care of what I have to get about what I paid for it. That I can live with.

Would I be happier with a real Gibson? Perhaps. Then again, maybe it'd take me another (16) years to figure it out for myself . . . ?

 

[SuperSwede]

I think that Gibson guitars have become less of a instrument, and more like some kind of investment. You buy a genuine Gibson because you think that its going to be worth a lot more in a couple of years, not because you are buying a really nice instrument. That is why I love the Epi & Squier guitars, you buy them because they are good instruments.

 

[Slowhand]

Is this the same McCarty as the Paul Reed Smith - McCarty fame?

Yes it's one and the same.... Funny about the Lawsuit considering he had a hand in both guitars

Just after EC joined Cream some light fingered ******* stole his famous Les Paul at a Gig, Eric looked around for a replacement but could not find one as good (he said it was very special) bought several Gibson's 335, LP & SG's. most of the Cream ERA stuff was ether the 335 or the SG that was painted by an artist group called "The Fool" If you get the Farewell Cream DVD you can have a close look at this guitar we Eric shows how to get the woman tone in an interview.
Graham

 

[Nelskie]

Cream's "Farewell Concert" on DVD, you say? Now that sounds like a DVD worth having. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Nelskie]

I think that Gibson guitars have become less of a instrument, and more like some kind of investment.

Yeah, it seems more and more like this is the case with Gibson these days. You almost feel like you have to keep it under wraps, so as not to affect the re-sale value. All the time, knowing fully well that knoweldgable collectors will scrutinize every pore of that guitar, and still find something wrong with it. And play it? Ohmigod no! It's too nice to play out in the garage. This type of post-purchase mentality is one of the primary reasons why I stay away from high-end gear. Again, this is just my own personal take on it.

That is why I love the Epi & Squier guitars, you buy them because they are good instruments.

Me too. You still get the "feel" and "vibe" of the real deal at a mere fraction of the cost.

 

[Spudman]

Todd Rundgren owns Eric Claptons custom painted SG that the Fool did. He still records with it so maybe they are meant to be played after all.

 

[Nelskie]

Spud - I know half a dozen guys who treat their Gibsons like the were the holy grail or something. As a matter of fact, I am quite familiar with that look of nervous fear that comes across their faces when I grab their precious Gibbie off of the museum-like wall display, to bust out a few chords of "Francine". That look: absolutely priceless!

 

[r_a_smith3530]

Super Swede - Is this the same McCarty as the Paul Reed Smith - McCarty fame? If so I can understand why the SG sounds special. While my PRS isn't a McCarty the slightly thinner mahagony bodies do sound like Gibson SGs. They have their own unique sound. Bright and midrangy...yet tight on the low frequencies. The PRS McCartys are thicker bodied though.

Yes T2TB, they are one and the same! In fact, McCarty probably had more to do with the original Les Paul becoming a reality than Les himself did! When Les first pitched the idea to Gibson back in 1941, it is said (in the semi-official history on the LP) that he was pretty much laughed out of the building by senior Gibson management. Remember that at the time, Gibson was an acoustic guitar and mandolin builder.

Think of someone walking into Martin in the early 1940's, proposing a solid-bodied electric guitar as a concept.

Thank God McCarty noticed (I'm sure the introduction of the Fender Broadcaster helped too!), because that may have been the impetus that helped push Leo to do greater and greater things. I actually believe that Leo would have done great things irregardless, but having the competition pushed him and his buddy, a draftsman with a town named after him, to be even better.

If I'm not wrong, like post Fender, pre G&L Leo with CLF Research, and its association with MusicMan, Ted McCarty I believe also did something else semi-famous in the guitar world between Gibson and PRS.

 

[r_a_smith3530]

Wish I never brought it up? Heck no! This is a guitar forum, and that's what I'm here to do - talk about guitars. More specifically, talk about guitars I like. And me like SG!

Ya' know fellas, I dig your vibe on the Gibson thing. The reasoning 69SL outlined in his first response makes perfect sense. However, my take on it is a bit different. For starters, I'm a proud Epiphone owner, and the fabulous Les Paul model I have has been the cornerstone of my own tone for over (16) years. All that time, been nuthin' but truckloads of mojo, sass, and attitude comin' outta' her. Even with all of my other axes, the dudes I jam with still equate my sound with that guitar. And I'd like to think that particular connection has nothing to do with a name on a headstock.

I'd also tell you that not once during those (16) years have I been even the tiniest bit inclined to upgrade to a real Gibson. And I've played plenty of the genuine articles to know where the differences lie. I truly feel that Epiphone offers guitarists both solid value and quality. Add to that the ongoing love affair I have with another great piece of Epiphone gear - my Valve Jr. amp, and I guess I'd probably tell you that I'd feel like a two-faced dog if I didn't at least give an Epi SG a try. If I decided to purchase one, I'd also do it through MF, or Music123, where there's a return policy. Me no like, me send back. No worries mon!

Resale is mute point for me. I buy to play, not to resell. And if I do end up selling off stuff off to upgrade, I usually take good enough care of what I have to get about what I paid for it. That I can live with.

Would I be happier with a real Gibson? Perhaps. Then again, maybe it'd take me another (16) years to figure it out for myself . . . ?

Nelskie, based on what you've stated above, I'm curious about what was the impetus for you to buy a USA G&L ASAT instead of a Tribute by G&L, and to purchase a MiM Fender instead of a Squier? Nothing to it, I'm just curious, probably because I feel much the same way.

At the time I bought my old G&L S-500, I didn't have a clue what that name was all about. I literally walked out of the guitar store with this $450 hunk of wood, and not a clue of its origin. It would probably be a year or so later that I learned the connection between my guitar and Leo Fender!

That guitar almost left my life in trade for a brand new Tribute by G&L L-2000 Premium, a hard case, and a small Epi practice amp. That it didn't is only because of the pleading of a few folks on the G&L Discussion Page. They, and my best friend. They are the ones who talked out of moving forward with that deal, and today, my '85 'Hog USA G&L is the result.

Frankenbass came about because I didn't like the added tension of the 35" scale Yamaha bass I was playing at the time, and I came across someone with some Fender parts. He could have just as well been a Squier.

Since we're talking Gibson's here, my Les Paul Studio is a similar case in point. When I found it, I was looking at this gorgeous Epi Les Paul 50th Anniversary model. It was pretty, and it sounded just fine. It would have suited my purposes. But my eye kept being drawn to this guitar two spaces further down the wall. I must have spent ten hours over the course of several days in that guitar shop, just going back and forth between the two. When I wasn't at the store, my guts were wrenching with the thought that someone else would get the one I wanted. In the end, I'm glad that I spent the extra hundred and fifty that I paid above the price of the Epi Anniversary. Why? Well certainly not because of the name on the headstock, although it is nice to have an actual Gibson (that I like). Remember though that my first electric was a '74 Gibby LP Custom. No, rather, it is because after ten hours of going back and forth, the Studio was the winner in tone, and that was worth the additional money!

If you want to see the real me when it comes to guitars, look at my Reactor. Take a cheaper, but solidly built guitar, and upgrade the schnot out of it! Today, with a genuine Gibson, and a vintage G&L, if the house were burning, and I could only grab one thing, it would probably be that Peavey!

I'd really like to mess around with a Washburn Idol, but now I'm a bass player. Look for a custom SX Ash Jazz bass in the future though!