Need Some Clarification

[just strum]

The DP223F PAF 36th Anniversary F-Spaced Bridge Pickup DiMArzio pick-up was recommended to me, but I have a question about the description. What are they referring to when they say "F-Spaced"?

 

[M29]

A short answer is the spacing of the pole pieces and strings on a Fender pickup at the bridge is wider than a standard humbucking.

 

[hubberjub]

What M29 said.

 

[mrmudcat]

F=floyd spacing I believe.

 

[just strum]

I contacted DiMarzio's and told them I wanted to mod my Dot. Told them that my taste in music is primarily blues and classic rock.

I was looking for suggestions from them and they responded with

"try a standard-spaced AIr Classic neck model (DP190) in the neck position and an F-spaced PAF bridge model (DP223F) in the bridge position."

I'm also going to look at some Duncan pick ups.

At the risk of confusing the issue, I'm open to suggestions.

 

[markb]

Duncan use the term "trembucker" (and confuse the issue by having a Trembucker model!) for the same thing. Humbuckers spaced for Fender bridge position.

 

[ZMAN]

JS: With all the money you saved by not buying the ES335, I would spring for a set of BB 1 and 2s or 57 Classic, Classic plus and be done with it. My take on it is why buy 2 or 3 lower dollar pickups. After all what are these pickups copying? Then your dot would sound amazing.
Plus Chrismas is coming. Wouldn't that be a nice gift from a couple of family members. Just some thoughts.

 

[just strum]

Wouldn't that be a nice gift from a couple of family members. Just some thoughts.

We think alike.

Last Christmas it was pick ups for my Washburn Idol. I never heard of BB 1 and 2.

The 57's have always been a consideration, but I wasn't sure if the difference in cost was worth it (if you haven't figured out by now, I'm cheap).

 

[ZMAN]

Burstbucker 1, and 2, 3. Are the new line of Gibson pickups. I have been listening to the Joe Bonamassa at the Royal Albert hall and he uses BB in his guitars. They really sound amazing. The 57s 57 classic plus used to be my favourite upgrade, but the Burstbuckers are now #1. BTW that DVD is a must have. You are not cheap btw only frugal. But I think in the long run it is cheaper to buy the best once! And IMHO they are worth the extra cash.
Not many guys that have swapped them have not liked them. I mean guys like us who play blues and classic rock.
And for the record I was born in Scotland, so you know what our reputation is! LOL

 

[hubberjub]

We think alike.

Last Christmas it was pick ups for my Washburn Idol. I never heard of BB 1 and 2.

The 57's have always been a consideration, but I wasn't sure if the difference in cost was worth it (if you haven't figured out by now, I'm cheap).

He's talking about Gibson Burst Buckers. Some people really like them. I'm not a huge fan of Gibson pickups but they would be pretty easy to test out as they are in several new Gibson guitars. The 36th Anniversary Dimarzio pickups are getting some high praise. I am a fan of Dimarzio and have them in four of my guitars. My Modulus has Virtual P90s, my Les Paul has Virtual Vintage, and two of my new Heritages have a PAF Classic at the neck and a Super Distortion at the bridge. My other two Heritage 150s have Seymour Duncan 59s in them. They sound good but are a little muddier than the Dimarzios in my opinion.

 

[just strum]

Burstbucker 1, and 2, 3. Are the new line of Gibson pickups. I have been listening to the Joe Bonamassa at the Royal Albert hall and he uses BB in his guitars. They really sound amazing. The 57s 57 classic plus used to be my favourite upgrade, but the Burstbuckers are now #1.

I'm thinking either the DiMarzio's as already noted or the 57 classic and 57 classic plus. I've used the DiMarzio's (not the same model) in my Idol and I was pleased with them. However, I know what 57's sound like and it goes without saying that I am attracted to them.

I'll have to check out the BB's if I get the opportunity.

I would like to get a sample of how the 36th Anniversary Dimarzio sound.

 

[hubberjub]

This is a video by Jack Zucker. He's using an Epiphone Elitist Les Paul with the 36th Anniversary pickups in it. I have been impressed with what I've heard of these pickups.

 

[Kazz]

(if you haven't figured out by now, I'm cheap).

Ha.....he finally admits it...

 

[deeaa]

Guys,

I don't believe anyone can blind test and make out any differences between any mostly similar pickups, like Seymours of similar-output power, distinguish between them or put in order & repeat the feat reliably.

In real world, there is NO real difference between any regular humbucking pickup using the same structure and basically the same materials and winding. By using totally different magnets for instance you can get differences, yes, but they are so small you only need a 1/30th turn of yer tone knob to negate the changes.

Of course there's going to be a difference between, say a Seymour and a cheaply made chinese copy but between those groups it's damned hard to notice any real differences, and I bet if there are any, 90% of it is plain imagination.

So basically, changing between various similar seymours and finding differences in them is, IMHO of course, akin to seeing Jesus in a burnt toast.

Just pick the output level you want and the build quality you want and it won't matter none which exact model you are using in the end.

I could rip & randomly give numbers to for instance Seymour site sound clips and ask people to re-name them according to which pup clips they are and I'm confident there is NOBODY who could do it.

Want to test it? I could easily put up a couple of 'official seymour' soundclips in new files and see if anybody could even remotely guess or compare what clips they might be?`

 

[ZMAN]

I got ot thinking about the DC output of my humbucker pickups. I tested my three Gibson Les Pauls, my 335, and my Epi Elitist LP with the Gibson pickups.
The ES335 were the closest to a PAF pickup ala 57 Classic, Burstbuckers etc.
They were in the range of 7.11 neck to 8.79 bridge. The two with the 490/498 combos and the Epi which are said to be rebadged Gibby 490/498s
all had in the range of 7.4 neck and 13.35 bridge. Just for fun I checked the 2001 Sheraton with the stock Epi pickups and they were neck 8.43 and bridge 8.67.
The 496/500 set in my Classic were way up at 8.32 neck and 14.59 bridge.
The P90s were interesting as well. The Wilkinsons were 9.83 neck and 10.98 bridge. The ones in my 68 SG Gibson P90s were neck 7.48 and Bridge 7.55.
Now to rate the tone on all of these I would say that the 335s with the semi hollow body are very mellow, but can hit some pretty good highs.
The 490/498 combos are really good at both ends. You get a pretty good PAF sound on the neck and yet you can get some screaming solos with the bridge. The Classic Ceramic magnet pickups are really nice for some electric blues, and I must say I really like them now that I have heard the Burstbucker 2 and 3s that Bonamassa has, which are the high output in that series.
JS: I thought you could use this as a reference when you are looking at the aftermarket pick ups. They usually give their DC resistance in the specs.
In your dot you might like to try something that is in the range of 7.5 neck and something that is in the range of 13 in the bridge for a little punch. I am not sure but I think the 57 Classic plus is in that range.
Also I would look around for a set of 490/498s in the used section because they are very nice pickups. I have a set of Seymour Duncan design pickups in an Esprit that are supposed to be copy of the 59, and JB. I just checked them, and the neck is 7.65, and the bridge is a wopping 15.52
As you know the wood and the other electronics play a big role in tone. I hope this helps.
I am now going to measure my Strats.

 

[deeaa]

I got ot thinking about the DC output of my humbucker pickups. I tested my three Gibson Les Pauls, my 335, and my Epi Elitist LP with the Gibson pickups.
The ES335 were the closest to a PAF pickup ala 57 Classic, Burstbuckers etc.
They were in the range of 7.11 neck to 8.79 bridge.

So, the 335 should give somewhat a softer, rounder sound, further alleviated by the hollow construction, right?

The two with the 490/498 combos and the Epi which are said to be rebadged Gibby 490/498s
all had in the range of 7.4 neck and 13.35 bridge. Just for fun I checked the 2001 Sheraton with the stock Epi pickups and they were neck 8.43 and bridge 8.67.

So these should be hotter also in sound, more punch? And the Sheraton again should be mellower and jazzier?

The 496/500 set in my Classic were way up at 8.32 neck and 14.59 bridge.

Well...is the Classic also a tad spankier, then?

The P90s were interesting as well. The Wilkinsons were 9.83 neck and 10.98 bridge. The ones in my 68 SG Gibson P90s were neck 7.48 and Bridge 7.55.

P90's should sound totally different since they're entirely different construction...but between the each the SG should be clearly mellower...although the structure of an SG should lend to a lot of attack anyhow.

In your dot you might like to try something that is in the range of 7.5 neck and something that is in the range of 13 in the bridge for a little punch. I am not sure but I think the 57 Classic plus is in that range.
Also I would look around for a set of 490/498s in the used section because they are very nice pickups. I have a set of Seymour Duncan design pickups in an Esprit that are supposed to be copy of the 59, and JB. I just checked them, and the neck is 7.65, and the bridge is a wopping 15.52
As you know the wood and the other electronics play a big role in tone. I hope this helps.
I am now going to measure my Strats.

Very interesting stuff, isn't it? As you said, the other aspects of the guitar have a significant rule. But basically it's exactly that - find out how much power you'd like to have from the pickup, the overall structure (basic tone) you want, and then just get any quality pickup that suits that range.

I'd really be interested, if it were feasible - to hear if putting the 335's neck pup and the classics's bridge pup in the esprit and vice versa, would there be any discernible differences in the tone of either guitar?

I strongly doubt there would be any, except maybe ever so slightly more oomph in the bridge pup due to hotter DC. But I've only tested a big bunch of pickups in a single guitar, never swapping pickups between actual, much used guitars.

I don't remember exactly which were the pickups I tested w/my buddy when we once just spent a weekend putting together a couple of strats, you know, throw in a mahogany body or an ash body, maple/rosewood neck or all maple etc, and tested how much differences there were...we also had I think seven humbuckers we tested on this 'open' guitar we put together, ranging from a couple of Seymours to Gotoh to some unnamed pup from a $100 guitar...anyway, between the lot we had - which had roughly the same outputs, between ~9 and ~14 all of them, the only one that stood out was that P.O.S. from the $100 copy guitar...it was 'murky' to say the least. Probably some really cheap a$$ magnets or something. But other than that...we found no real difference at all. No way either of us could have ever picked out any single one of them beside the cheapo.

However, maybe there is some magic in selecting the most appropriate output level to suit the construction of the guitar. Would a 335 sound 'right' with a 15+ bridge pup any more? Or would it become a feedback-prone LP?

Interesting stuff.

 

[ZMAN]

deeaa: I feel that all of your conclusions are correct. I feel the same as you do. That is my take on them. I don't mod my guitars because I have such an array of different pickups that really cover the gamut of most output levels.
Also the body wood, density, chambering, semi hollow all make the guitar sound differently.
I feel that it is the output of the pickup, that should be the main consideration in choices of pickups.
I never even thought about high output pickup feeback in the semihollows either.
This schematic from Gibson kind of says it all. It shows the ouput levels for various pickups and is probably the same for most brands. There is definitely an overlap, and all the hype in the world won't change things. They are basically the same design since the 50s, and either have more winds or less, and a weaker or stronger magnet.
I realized this after I am getting a very close tone to Bonamassa through my Marshall amps using my pedals and my 490/498 combo in my Studio and Standard. He uses burstbucker 2, 3s.
The main consideration in choosing a humbucker should be output and how the guitar you are putting them in sounds acoustically. Without being plugged in.
Also both of the semi hollow bodies I own have pickups only slightly different, and both under 9.0.
http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Divisions/Gibson Gear/Pickups/How They_re Made (1)/

 

[Duff]

Pickups

I'm not sure why, but I can clearly hear the difference between different pickups. Some of my favorites are the Crunchy PATs in my new Xavier XV500; the tone is great and they are amazing both pups. But compared to my Seymour Duncan nickel plated fifty nine neck and JB bridge in another LP, the JB is clearly hotter than the GFS bridge pup and probably sounds better: both tested thru my Crate Palamino V32 w two twelve Celestions, clean and dirty.

I can also clearly hear a difference in my other guitars.

The Burstbucker, and the Burstbucker 1, 2, and 3 are four different pickups according to the gibson customer service guy I talked to on Friday.

Some of my humbuckers sound a bit muddy but the GFS and the SD's are very clear and smooth with smooth crunch at low levels of drive.

These pickups probably are discernably different sounding because they are way different from the stock ones I replaced and the ones I'm comparing, plus other modifying factors; but I don't think that most humbucker types sound the same if tested comparitively. I would not be able to name the specific pickup but I would hear the difference, all other factors the same, amp settings, guitar, guitar settings, no effects, etc. I am highly confident that I would hear the difference.

Think about super distortion pickups for instance. These will not sound like PAF pickups.

 

[deeaa]

Yes of course you can hear differences...they're different strength/build PU's. I'm not saying there is no difference between electric pickups, quite the contrary...there's plenty of difference between powers and nickel plating and whatnot, sure...

What I was saying, between pickups of similar build AND same output values, there is hardly any difference at all. i.e. you get an open-coil Gibson with Alnicos and 11.2 output and a Seymour with alnicos and 11.2 output and unless the pole pieces are totally differently set, I don't believe anyone can hear a difference.

But sure, even a few twists at the polepiece screws changes the sound, of course it does.

I basically mean, it's very often no use comparing different manufactures or pay super-$$, or keep changing between basically similar pickups to 'upgrade' if you know what kind of pickup you want. Any well made basic pickup that gives just that output and structure you like will do just as well as the next one. So there is little point in changing, say a burstbucker to a same-output Seymour on the same axe IMO. There may well be a difference heard if a change is made but it's in my opinion only due to a.)believing there is a difference b.) it won't be set exactly the same as the previous one anyhow, poles slightly differently etc.

But sure, changing to a different build/output, differences there are.

It's another matter whether even then it makes sense ultimately, as in most cases that difference is negated with a slight touch of tone knob anyways

 

[Duff]

Pickup differences

I wish I knew where I could find an inexpensive near exact replica of a Seymour Duncan JB nickel covered or a SD '59 nickel covered, because the GFS crunchy PATS are not the same and my knowledge of cross referencing pickups is not existant; but that would be great to see a chart or list of pickups that are inexpensive and are very close replicas of a lot of the famous big time pickups we all love.

Another thing I noticed is that Fender doesn't disclose the technical details of the pickups on a '09 American Standard strat; and, evidently, according to the Fender customer representative, the company doesn't sell the stock pickups. So how do you even know what pickups you have? I suppose people have taken them out and studied them and know the answer or know someone from Fender that revealed the details, but the average guy doesn't know.

In any case there are a lot of outstanding really impressive aftermarket pickups out there that don't sound like the stock pickups, but that is not comparing apples to apples.

 

[just strum]

Guys,

I don't believe anyone can blind test and make out any differences between any mostly similar pickups, like Seymours of similar-output power, distinguish between them or put in order & repeat the feat reliably.

In real world, there is NO real difference between any regular humbucking pickup using the same structure and basically the same materials and winding. By using totally different magnets for instance you can get differences, yes, but they are so small you only need a 1/30th turn of yer tone knob to negate the changes.

Let me try to understand this. What you are saying is that if you take Gibson 57's and compare them to "like" pick-ups of another brand (Duncans, DiMarzio or .....), you will not be able to hear a difference?

 

[deeaa]

Let me try to understand this. What you are saying is that if you take Gibson 57's and compare them to "like" pick-ups of another brand (Duncans, DiMarzio or .....), you will not be able to hear a difference?

Usually you will hear a difference but that is because you won't find and udually not even try find a pickup with exact same values. But, yes, if you swap a Gibby 57 to any pup with just the same values, same build (covers/no, magnet type), then any differences can only come from loose potting or such.

Usually there are differences due to age etc. but what I'm trying to say it doesn't matter if its ghs, gibby, duncan, whatever, just that the output and build is what you want.

Pickups are VERY simple. You can build your own easier than bake a cake. There is no magic or mystery to them, although that's what manuacturers would have us believe.

 

[deeaa]

I wanna clarify further; as with anything else, there are subtle differences to pickups for sure, and with age they accumulate traits like loose the coils a little, magnets weaken etc. and so on and on...

But the bottom like is they are much much more similar between each other than people, based on reports etc. seem to really think. I've tested it several times too. The tone of an electric probably changes much more by swapping the body to a mahogany one for instance than by swapping a DiMarzio to a Seymour, unless the new pickups are clearly different from the originals.

But, say you swap a nice $50 bucker for a $200 bucker that has the exact same output level and build type...I really can't believe anyone who claims they could spot the difference in a blind test. That's what I mean. The user probably does hear even a lot of differences; well he _wants_ to hear a difference and he'll adjust it and play it and probably will end up with a difference in tone, but I'm sure it's not the pickup, it's how it's set up, how the polepieces are set and so on.

IMO there is no sense in swapping a, say a better quality Epi pickup to a same type/power Gibson pup...whatever differences there may be are surely smaller than a small twist of a tone knob.

Now, if you're changing the build, that's another story. P90 is entirely different from a bucker, or a single, or active, or minibucker, or stacked, or coverless/covered, with staggered poles/large/small screws, alnico/normal/vintage magnets...all these are totally different in sound between each other.

But a 11.2 DiMarzio Alnico and a 11.2 Seymour Alnico and whatever 11.2 alnico bucker...there is virtually no difference between those.

 

[deeaa]

I wish I knew where I could find an inexpensive near exact replica of a Seymour Duncan JB nickel covered or a SD '59 nickel covered, because the GFS crunchy PATS are not the same and my knowledge of cross referencing pickups is not existant; but that would be great to see a chart or list of pickups that are inexpensive and are very close replicas of a lot of the famous big time pickups we all love.

Indeed it would be great! I don't think SD makes the nickel covered JB any more? But, you used to be able to see the output values from their webpage...then just find something close to it...may be hard though.

 

[wingsdad]

Indeed it would be great! I don't think SD makes the nickel covered JB any more? But, you used to be able to see the output values from their webpage...then just find something close to it...may be hard though.

Here's a link to the Duncan comparison chart with all that stuff, the JB series is on there.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/comparetones
You can download DiMarzio's product catalog (pdf) and find a pickup spec comparison chart. The one I downloaded a couple of years ago has it on the last page.
http://www.dimarzio.com/site/#/pickups/

edit: I have the Gibson Pickup guide pdf I found on their website a couple of years ago, and tried to upload it as an attachment, but the file's too big, overlimit. I tried to find it on thier site now, but I'm outta time...

A brainiac with time on their hands could create a comparison chart from these sources and build on it with whatever specs they can find on the bargain basement variety knock-offs.

 

[Eric]

In real world, there is NO real difference between any regular humbucking pickup using the same structure and basically the same materials and winding. By using totally different magnets for instance you can get differences, yes, but they are so small you only need a 1/30th turn of yer tone knob to negate the changes.

Of course there's going to be a difference between, say a Seymour and a cheaply made chinese copy but between those groups it's damned hard to notice any real differences, and I bet if there are any, 90% of it is plain imagination.

I know you have taken some heat for this assertion, but I think you're right-on. It's kind of freeing to me to know that you don't have to buy super-expensive to get that elusive pickup tone, because...well, I'm cheap.

It makes me wonder what other things are veiled in mystery and don't really mean as much as some think they do. Cables come to mind...

 

[sumitomo]

Oh,Oh I have an answer for ya Eric,the pickup besides the ohm's and all that,well it generates a magentic field and your cable,well let me use something else I can use well a spark plug wire the spark plug wont fire off if it dosent get a good signal if there is a lot of resistance in the wire also the cable will act like a radio antenna if it is not shielded well.Here's a little something for your tool box,on cars mostly Asian cars most electrical probs are not because their not getting power it's because of bad ground's.Sumi

 

[Eric]

Oh,Oh I have an answer for ya Eric,the pickup besides the ohm's and all that,well it generates a magentic field and your cable,well let me use something else I can use well a spark plug wire the spark plug wont fire off if it dosent get a good signal if there is a lot of resistance in the wire also the cable will act like a radio antenna if it is not shielded well.Here's a little something for your tool box,on cars mostly Asian cars most electrical probs are not because their not getting power it's because of bad ground's.Sumi

OK. Are we talking about the same thing here? I was referring to the fact that those 'premium' cables (e.g. Monster) don't really offer much difference from cheap cables in terms of signal. A cable is a cable, as long as it's shielded and low capacitance (I think).

Now I'm hijacking this thread. Sorry...

 

[sumitomo]

Nope there is a difference.Sumi

 

[just strum]

Now I'm hijacking this thread. Sorry...

My thread and I am enjoying the conversation.