• You're one step from joining Guitar Discussion Forum - The Fret.
    Create a free account to post, follow threads, and never miss an update.  Sign up free →

Trade Tang

Guitar Discussion Forum - The Fret

Help Support TheFret.net:

bcdon said:
Just playing advocatus diaboli here, but what about people who buy fake Rolexs? Or knock off handbags? Hell, what about fake ****s?
Click to expand...

Apart from the breasts, which I assume was a joke ;) it's the exact same thing imo. But as I've been reading, there are clearly a few different aspects being discussed here.

On the topic of the "poor customer" who unwittingly buys a fake with their hard earned cash, I honestly feel no empathy. Call me heartless, but there's a reason the phrase "Caveat Emptor" has stuck around longer than the very language it was written in.

It's the 21st century. The fact that China produces everything from fake guitars to fake medication and even fake food is widely known. The only thing more universally known is that the guy selling watches and handbags on the street in (insert pretty much any country you can think of) probably isn't an authorized reseller.

Commonplace English phrases like "buyer beware", "You get what you pay for" and "false economy" and the list goes on, are commonplace for a reason! I'm sure there are similar phrases in most languages too (I don't know for sure though) but these little cultural training tools keep hanging around in society because every new generation needs to be reminded that "if it looks to good to be true, it probably is"

If you ignore the anthropological teachings of your language, your upbringing and education, and the people you interact with, and then further ignore research, reviews and opinions expressed online and end up being surprised that the item you paid FAR below cost for is a crap fake, then well, as I said, I feel no empathy or pity.

As for the outsourcing/offshoring local jobs etc, well I avoid that subject like the plague. :)
 
To be honest, I think it's much ado about nothing....:thwap

I'm just trying to survive this life, you do what you gotta do...and I'll do what I gotta do. Capeesh?
 
I wrote an article over a year ago for Premier Guitar magazine on this very subject. Trade Tang is, as mentioned, a clearing house for all kinds of products, some bootlegged, sort of China's answer to Craigslist. You order a guitar from someone on Trade Tang, and they go out and find it for you. You may or may not get exactly what you ask for, and the return policy is basically nil. Not many people will go through the expense and hassle of shipping something back to China.

If you go to www.samin.com, you'll find a direct source of counterfeit Chinese guitars. These people manufacture them, and there are others.

As far as the quality of these instruments, you get what you pay for in most cases. You could compare Chinese counterfeits to your average Epiphone in many ways. I have tried a few bootlegged "Gibsons" after they were gutted, with all the electronics and some of the hardware replaced, the frets dressed and leveled and other work done, and they played fine. You have to do a lot of work on them to get them that way. Why bother?

Gibson employs people to sit at computers tracking Chinese counterfeits eight hours a day, five days a week, and they try to do everything they can to shut the bootleggers down. Problem is, the Chinese government is very lax about stuff like this, so Gibson, Fender, PRS, etc, get a lot of lip service and not much else. The one guitar maker who seems to succeed best in preventing counterfeits is Rickenbacker. Where they fail is in the manufacture of bootlegged Rickenbacker accessories, like truss rod covers. I spoke to Rick's president, John Hall, about this extensively. One of the reasons he's successful in stopping them is because all Rick guitars are made in the USA, unlike Gibson, Fender and PRS, who farm out low end products to Asia.

And yes, the some of counterfeits are coming out of the same factories that make the guitars for those American companies. Amazing.

My advice is not to fall prey to counterfeit guitars. In doing research for the article, I actually came close to ordering a fake Les Paul Junior in order to go through the process and gauge the results. My accountant assured me I could write it off as the cost of doing business, but in the end, it became a moral issue and I couldn't do it.

Buy your guitars from authorized dealers. That way, you know you're getting the real thing.
 
Thanks!

Drumbob,

Thank you for your insightful and very informative post!
 
Last edited:
NWBasser said:
I would think that the General Agreement of Trade and Tariffs (GATT) would have some provisions to protect intellectual property and trademarks. Maybe not a cease and desist, but a lawsuit for damages?
Click to expand...

But a damages judgment against a foreign company is just a piece of paper. Where, as here, that company's home country doesn't doesn't give 2 ***** about the legal issue involved, good luck ever seeing a dime. I'm guessing a judgment against one of the Chinese counterfeiters would be worthless. The only real remedy is shutting them down.

My bill is in the mail. :D

BK

Florida Bar # 096310.
 
Brian, I think we have a couple of legal firsts here:

1. Your well reasoned legal opinion is awesome. You should become a judge.

2. That's the first time in the history of law that "2 *****" was ever documented as part of a legal opinion. That makes it even more awesome.

Please don't charge for the awesomeness. We couldn't afford it!:)
 
Lord help us all if I ever became a judge. I lack "judicial temperment."

As well as many other laudable character traits.

Awesomeness is always free.
 
I just got a mental picture, Brian:

You're on the bench, and you ask a young defendant if he has anything to say before sentencing. Defendant gives a story that's a big bag o' hooey, to which you respond, "Son, don't piss on me and tell me that it's raining!"

I have an active imagination...

Come on over to Texas. Here, "judicial temperament" means that the judge had the restraint to refrain from throwing the gavel at someone during trial (lol), although I'm sure it's happened a time or two, even though I don't have proof.


Back to the topic, Drumbob, great post. Thanks for having the moral fortitude to not purchase a counterfeit.
 
They're waiting for Gibson to come out with Firebird X Tang, complete with retractable straw, wifi, bluetooth, USB, 1TB of memory, and built in TV/Blu Ray screen and player.

It'll be a drink REVOLUTION!

Then the Chinese'll copy it.
 
Beware - dead thread walking!!

I just found this trade tang site a couple weeks ago and decided to pull the trigger on a fake gibby LP supreme last night.

I would never in my life purchase a real LP supreme as my talent level would never justify such a purchase. But a not-as-nice copy of such an awesome guitar - well why not? I've bought Epi Custom LP's because I can't afford the real thing. Does it make sense to fatten up Epi's bottom line just because it's a licensed copy? To me - nope.

I suppose there are several ways to look at it - I didn't buy it because it says "gibson" on the headstock (actually don't know if it does, the pics don't have the front of the headstock but I'm guessing it does), I didn't buy it expecting to get a guitar with the quality of a real gibby LP supreme.

What it does have that I like is an ebony fretboard, cool looking block inlays and a nice burst finish. As far as supporting China's economy vs. the American economy - China has gotten more $$$ from Epiphone and other guitar manufacturers (my Austin LP) than they'll ever get from me. I see this purchase as cutting out the Epiphone in the equation. I'm willing to be that when I get the guitar (hopefully lol!) it'll be like other Epi's I've had that costed a lot more money and didn't have the same features.

The only problem I have with these guitars is the blatant use of the Gibson name/markings on the guitar on a non-gibson product. But again, I'm not buying it for that and I'd never sell it as such. In fact I believe that I will come up with a way to mark it as a fake without jacking it up completely. I see it as taking one off the streets :)

Should be fun and interesting - I paid via paypal and received confirmations all along the way of them confirming my payment, the seller being notified of my purchase, and my tracking number for some shipping service called "EMS". Total price for the guitar and case was $360.03. Not sure how long it'll take to get here but I'll post up a NGD when it arrives.

I realize this may ruffle some feathers for some - but know that gibson didn't lose a cent on this transaction - I'd never be able to afford their version of this axe.

We'll see if the "too good to be true" mantra holds up, or if it's a cadillac for a pinto price :)
 
I'll be curious to hear what you think about it. My general impression of those fake guitars was that they were trying to lure you in with the name, so the quality was pretty sub-standard. But that's based on zero data points, so it will be good to at least get some anecdotal information.
 
progrmr said:
Beware - dead thread walking!!

I just found this trade tang site a couple weeks ago and decided to pull the trigger on a fake gibby LP supreme last night.

I would never in my life purchase a real LP supreme as my talent level would never justify such a purchase. But a not-as-nice copy of such an awesome guitar - well why not? I've bought Epi Custom LP's because I can't afford the real thing. Does it make sense to fatten up Epi's bottom line just because it's a licensed copy? To me - nope.

I suppose there are several ways to look at it - I didn't buy it because it says "gibson" on the headstock (actually don't know if it does, the pics don't have the front of the headstock but I'm guessing it does), I didn't buy it expecting to get a guitar with the quality of a real gibby LP supreme.

What it does have that I like is an ebony fretboard, cool looking block inlays and a nice burst finish. As far as supporting China's economy vs. the American economy - China has gotten more $$$ from Epiphone and other guitar manufacturers (my Austin LP) than they'll ever get from me. I see this purchase as cutting out the Epiphone in the equation. I'm willing to be that when I get the guitar (hopefully lol!) it'll be like other Epi's I've had that costed a lot more money and didn't have the same features.

The only problem I have with these guitars is the blatant use of the Gibson name/markings on the guitar on a non-gibson product. But again, I'm not buying it for that and I'd never sell it as such. In fact I believe that I will come up with a way to mark it as a fake without jacking it up completely. I see it as taking one off the streets :)

Should be fun and interesting - I paid via paypal and received confirmations all along the way of them confirming my payment, the seller being notified of my purchase, and my tracking number for some shipping service called "EMS". Total price for the guitar and case was $360.03. Not sure how long it'll take to get here but I'll post up a NGD when it arrives.

I realize this may ruffle some feathers for some - but know that gibson didn't lose a cent on this transaction - I'd never be able to afford their version of this axe.

We'll see if the "too good to be true" mantra holds up, or if it's a cadillac for a pinto price :)
Click to expand...

Does the $360 include postage or is it another $400 ? Just wondered if you have been ripped off ?
 
You know, you could have gotten a Korean-made Agile LP for a similar price. They are great quality guitars (I can attest to that) and have the ebony fretboard and mucho bling factor.

Just sayin':poke

Keep in mind that if you try to sell the Gibby copy, you could possibly run into thorny legal issues.
 
NWBasser said:
You know, you could have gotten a Korean-made Agile LP for a similar price. They are great quality guitars (I can attest to that) and have the ebony fretboard and mucho bling factor.

Just sayin':poke

Keep in mind that if you try to sell the Gibby copy, you could possibly run into thorny legal issues.
Click to expand...
IIRC, progrmr has already bought and sold a few Agiles, so his input on the quality of this guitar will have some good data points against which to compare.
 
Yes I've had an AL-3100 and an AL-2000. The 3100 had the ebony fretboard and ablone inlays. The frets on that one were pretty spotty - but that's just out of the box. Both of the Agiles I had were good but there was something about them that made me not bond with them. Great deals for the money.

RE: selling the copy - honestly if I did want to sell I would never let it go as a true Gibby. I think if you sell them and make it clear during the sale that it's a copy you can sell w/o worry. That said, I'm sure this one will need the attention of my local luthier and I'm going to ask them about how to cover up/modify the headstock to cover or remove the serial and made in the USA on back. Then see what they recommend about "Gibson" on the front (if it does say that - again the pics I saw there was no pic of the front of the headstock).

I'm not expecting much - but I'm hoping for something decent that I can put some decent electronics in and have it be a good player.
 
It's your decision, buy whatever you want.. I hope it turns out to be a good guitar, if not, lesson learned. Post
some nice pictures when you get it. :dude
 
Progrmr -

I'd be interested to see a pic or two, and your opinion on build quality, playability, et cetera. I've seen YouTube vids of some with painted fretboards to look like ebony, bad wiring and other issues. The guitar ZMAN posted is a good example.

As for taking it to a luthier to get the Gibby markings removed if you sell/trade it, good on ya! If you do get rid of it, the buyer might know it was a fake, then sell it for a much higher price to an unknowing 3rd party later, as a real Gibby.

I've got no problem, really, with a Chinese company copying the look of a Gibby. It's competition, much in the same way that Tokai and other Japanese brands did (and still do). It's the same as when I look for a new toaster, or any other consumer item. If it has the same quality for a better price, why not?

The only issue that I have is that these guitars are marketed to the public (where a large percentage don't know better) as a real Gibby.

Some of the Chinese manufacturers on TT and other sites will send you a guitar without Gibby markings. That makes things more kosher in my book. In your case, it's cool because you know it's not a Gibby, and don't plan on representing it as such. Good luck!
 
We've all seen the discussions, debates, angst, rightious indignation, flaming, etc. over the "issue" of counterfeits. I think it sucks, and I think it sucks when some rube gets taken. That said, I also think it sucks that such a market can exist because there are enough potential buyers who MUST have the prestige of certain brand names, buyers who do little to no pre-purchase research, buyers who can't afford the real thing but will go with the knockoff for the imagined prestige, buyers who are driven by ego to "keep up with the Joneses", buyers who can't think for themselves. As far as I know, the "knockoff" thing is relatively new, so what's changed?

My wish is that more of the potential rubes learn how to do decent pre-purchase research, and that the "champagne taste on a beer budget" types grow a pair and learn how to think for themselves. I also wish that more people would go with the off-brands, which in many cases offer incredible value.

As for the OP's purchase, I have no problem with that, except for why?.
 
One of the guys on the Agile forum recently bought one from Trade Tang. All in all, not too terrible. It needed some minor setup stuff, and he replaced the pots, caps and pickups, but he was planning on doing that anyway. His was an Ace Frehley model, something that he'd wanted for a long time but couldn't afford. I'm neutral on the issue, but I have seen a lot of them for sale on the Portland, Oregon CL and it's tempting to just go try one out to see how they compare to my Agiles and Epi.

Progrmr, keep us in the loop as far as how long the shipping takes, how it's packed, the quality of the case, frets, electronics...everything. It will be good to hear everything from one of our Fret family members. And pics, lots of pics!
 
Will do - shipping is supposed to take 8 days so possibly next week or more likely the following week.

There will be many pics and brutally honest assessment of the hardware. :)
 
EMS is the most common (and very efficient) express service here in Asia. I use it all the time. It should take between 4-7 days typically. Also the real cost of the shipping is probably at least US $120 so your $360 guitar is actually more like $240-$220 or so. I am more than fairly certain that you won't be getting a Caddy for the price of a Pinto but it should be playable and look ok. I would expect to put some money in it if you want something that plays/sounds good. BTW, unless there are some name brand components (I mean the REAL name brand components), their cost to manufacture is likely no more than about $70 which is a huge mark up for them. If they were selling OEM to a distributor, they would be making about $40-$60 per guitar. So they love this deal.

When I was researching guitar manufacturers, I purchased many samples. Some much better than others but just about all of them were decent and playable. I remember a 335 style model that I paid about $90 for was pretty good. I gave it to my nephew.

By the way- shame on you progrmr! And also remember, pics or it didn't happen ;)
I hope it works out well for you.
 
Just an update on the TradeTang order - It's still in China! Well the last step in the tracking says it left the sorting facility in ZhengZhu I believe...all I know is it's been 6 days and the guitar has a bit of travel to go!

I'll keep this thread updated until I actually get it. :)
 
w00t! Guitar has been handed over to customs at JFK...at least it made it to the US! I hope it'll get here this week and see "treasure" awaits me in that box :)
 
progrmr said:
w00t! Guitar has been handed over to customs at JFK...at least it made it to the US! I hope it'll get here this week and see "treasure" awaits me in that box :)
Click to expand...

man-raising-fist-excited1.jpg
 
Trade Tang guitar is in Columbus Probably have it in hand tomorrow but possibly tonight.

The truth will be known :)
 

Similar threads

Spudman
Donner - Morpher mini pedal
Replies
1
Views
2K
marnold
marnold
Robert
Scott Henderson Interview, November 2015
Replies
8
Views
3K
Robert
Robert
duhvoodooman
NGD!!! Heritage H-555 Semi-hollowbody
Replies
12
Views
6K
yuominae
Y
P
Maybe the biggest tip for improving technique
Replies
3
Views
2K
tjcurtin1
tjcurtin1
progrmr
Trade Tang Gibsun Les Paul Supreme - order review
2
Replies
54
Views
40K
progrmr
progrmr

Latest posts

Back
Top