Where to move?

[Eric]

Hi all,

For a while now (though more recently), my wife and I have felt that we probably won't be living in Philadelphia forever. Something about the east-coast mentality and the competitive attitude doesn't seem like it would work well with us in the long-term. I've been here almost 10 years, but it's becoming more clear as time wears on. Neither of us are from this area, which may be part of it. Provided we can sell our house, we plan to move out of the area within probably a year.

So my question: for those of you who have lived in multiple areas (or really, just for anyone), do you have any recommendations on where to move? I'd say employment (I'm a chemical engineer, she's a landscape architect), general life attitude (less wound up), and cost of living are all priorities, along with the obvious stuff like safety, cleanliness, etc.

Being from the midwest, I'm kind of biased toward that area, but really, we're both just trying to collect recommendations right now. Any and all input would be appreciated.

 

[Katastrophe]

Texas is calling you, my friend! No snow, no state income tax, lower cost of living, good music environment (especially in the Austin area), and work for both of your fields. The people are generally friendly. It ain't the midwest, but the state has a lot to offer.

 

[bcdon]

Kat is right about Texas but I'd also recommend the Pacific Northwest, especially Portland, Oregon unless you wanted to defect and come up here to Vancouver, B.C.

EDIT: I glanced over the cost of living requirement, well Vancouver won't meet that requirement. Oregon might but they do have an income tax but no sales tax (they do, however, have awesome beers!)

 

[bcdon]

Texas is calling you, my friend! No snow, no state income tax, lower cost of living, good music environment (especially in the Austin area), and work for both of your fields. The people are generally friendly. It ain't the midwest, but the state has a lot to offer.

After living in the midwest for 11 long years, I'd say not being the midwest is a good thing. ;-)

 

[Eric]

Interesting. Don, I don't know the first thing about inter-country moving, but doesn't that require some considerable paperwork? Also, what do you mean about the midwest? I'm curious how you'd characterize it relative to other areas. I grew up in Minnesota and have lived in Philadelphia during my adult life, so I don't have great perspective on either of them, since they were at such different stages of life.

Portland and Austin are both already in the mix, so that's good to hear a vote of confidence on both of them. Kind of looking at a bunch of cities right now: Pittsburgh, Portland, Milwaukee, Madison, Austin, Charleston, Savannah, etc. You only know so much until you see it first-hand, but those are a few that had piqued our interest.

 

[R_of_G]

Do you like a whole lot of heat and humidity and virtually no local music scene at all? Then check out Tampa.

I'm being partially facetious. This area does have many things to offer, though a thriving music scene is not amongst them.

I'm probably not the region's best spokesperson as if I had the means and opportunity to move I'd move (back to the northeast ideally).

 

[bcdon]

Interesting. Don, I don't know the first thing about inter-country moving, but doesn't that require some considerable paperwork? Also, what do you mean about the midwest?

Moving to Canada isn't that difficult as long as you can get a job offer first. As a 'Skilled Worker,' if your future employer can show that they interview locally and could not fill the position, it's just a little bit of paperwork to get a temporary visa (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/index.asp). After that you can apply for a 'Permanent Resident' card and then citizenship. The other approach is to apply for citizenship and then wait for approval, and immigrate and find a job.

As for the midwest, I'm a born and raised Texan and moving to Chicago* was a culturally shock to say the least. I just hated the lack of manners and hassles of large city America (you know where people say hello to you, smile, look you in the eye, hold the door open for you, that kind of stuff). I'm not saying the midwest is bad it just isn't for me. I still miss Texas but the Pacific Northwest is awesome. People are very friendly and laid back. Canada is very different than the US but it's a really nice place to live.

* Chicago is certainly an exception. I love Wisconsin and Minnesota too.

 

[omegadot]

Buffalo, NY native here and I guess I can say definitely don't move there. Arizona might be a decent place to look. I've had friends that defected and love the more laid back atmosphere. Once I'm out of the Navy in about < 4 years I might make my way in that direction myself. I love Buffalo, but I'm not sure if I still want to live there.

 

[bcdon]

I just wanted to say that I meant no disrespect to my mid-western brothers out there. There are a lot of fine folks from the Midwest, and my life in Chicago wasn't all that bad (they have a great number of fantastic bars). :dude

 

[otaypanky]

It's pretty nice just a few hours west of you in Pa., Eric. I am saddened to see many of the neighboring farms being sold off to developers, but that might be good news for your wife in her profession. The area is growing ~

 

[Eric]

As for the midwest, I'm a born and raised Texan and moving to Chicago* was a culturally shock to say the least. I just hated the lack of manners and hassles of large city America (you know where people say hello to you, smile, look you in the eye, hold the door open for you, that kind of stuff). I'm not saying the midwest is bad it just isn't for me. I still miss Texas but the Pacific Northwest is awesome. People are very friendly and laid back. Canada is very different than the US but it's a really nice place to live.

* Chicago is certainly an exception. I love Wisconsin and Minnesota too.

It's funny. I know your hesitation to say anything negative about a place, because I'm also finding it hard to tell anyone why we want to leave. I can relate to your Chicago stories quite a bit -- it's an adjustment that I thought I had made, but the difference in behavior becomes more pronounced with time. Your Chicago experience sounds more like Chicago than it does like "midwest" from my experience, but point taken. I think it's something to be taken into account when looking at big cities.

 

[NWBasser]

Well, on those few days when the sun is out, looking across Seattle and Puget Sound to the Olympic Mountains is stunning to say the least. Lots of folks from the midwest seem to end up here and really like it.

I'm right between Portland and BCDon which isn't a bad spot to be.

Outdoor recreation is really big here with loads of hiking, skiing, climbing, kayaking, etc.

The near-constant rain and winter darkness can be quite a drag though.

OTOH, you'd have a bass player nearby!

 

[mrmudcat]

Just dont move next to the big Mississippi!!!:socool


Id say the south will rise again......Texas seems to fit your checklist!

 

[Tig]

Why not Camden, just across the river? I hear you can find some cheap housing and the crime rate is super low!

 

[Tig]

OK, seriously... Your list has some nice choices. The job market will be a major factor for timing and location.

Savannah, Portland, and Austin would be among my personal choices. I've traveled quit a bit. My favorite places have almost no career potential, unfortunately. I live in a great place to make a living, but the city is too big for my tastes. The cost of living in Texas is incredible. My exact same house would cost 3 times or more in many parts of the US. The hot summers are the price we pay though.

Enjoy the freedom to make such a move. In time, it will unfold right before you. It may have a few challenges, but most good things are just past the hard parts.

 

[deeaa]

If you're free to move as you please, why not try some other continent for a size?

We've got real problems with relocating for two reasons: I have a tenure of my dreams that I probably would NEVER ever get again, it's really a product of 10 years of working for it, so I won't want to leave for longer I can get a sabbatical for and still keep the tenure. So a year or maximum of two I guess. Plus we have a house that is in no shape to sell - I mean, we're doing so much renovation on it etc. ourselves and it's both a work in process plus it'd be next to impossible to verify all the structures etc. so we don't want to sell it at least now, it'd be financially super stupid. The house could be worth over 300k easy if we got everything sorted, but if we sold it now, it'd fetch half that I bet. Plus we have a cottage and of course mortgages for it, my mother's apartment and my dad to take care of...two small kids...so it's not that easy to just off and go anywhere.

But anyhow, we're nevertheless thinking of living somewhere for a year or so, perhaps even within the next two years. Maybe Australia.

If I were you and quite free of any shackles like that, hell, I'd try Aussies, maybe Polynesia like Malaysia, Dubai in United Arab Emirates would be great, and from your origins, I'd think Germany, Scotland, or the Scandinavian countries. If you can find some work of course.

I have friends and/or people I just know living in all the countries above...it's pretty common actually in my sphere of buddies that people spend anything from a year to a decade working in another country or countries. I did the short route once, working in the U.S. for 4 months, but I don't think I'm done with excursions like that yet. Probably not the U.S, though, since I've been there already and I need to consider safety as well. An old guitarist buddy of mine just returned from a decade of working in France, Malaysia and somewhere else, was it South Africa...and now they settled back here and bought a cottage etc. Several friends spend a LOT of time in Dubai as well, it's a marvelous place I hear and they've found good work too.

Just an idea...

 

[syo]

Well Eric, thanks for inviting us to help you plan your life! :lecture
One thing you didn't mention was your preferred climate. Is this a major factor or no?

Personally, if it's domestic you're after I'll add my recommendation for the Pacific Northwest. I'm most familiar with Oregon which I have loved since I was a kid. Especially west of the Cascades. Beautiful place with a fair amount of culture and yes, great beer! Not sure of the employment situations in both of your fields however.

As you are both rather higher-end professionals, there may be opportunities internationally. Especially in chemical engineering. It isn't likely that you could both score a position in the same country/area at the same time, but if you could manage a job in a developing country you would probably enjoy a high standard of living and be able to save some money besides on just one income. Might be a nice adventure for a year or two and give you time to think about where you might want to settle more permanently. I've always been internationally inclined myself :french but it's not for everyone.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

 

[Eric]

One thing you didn't mention was your preferred climate. Is this a major factor or no?

Well, the preferred climate and relative importance are both up for debate. Having grown up in a colder area, I kind of miss snow in a romanticized way; in Philadelphia, snow is really just a pain in the butt and ugly to boot. I'm not sure my wife understands how it can be a good thing. She was raised in North Carolina and is more accustomed to warm weather.

I also tend to miss the long, dry autumns of the midwest.

We both agree that we could probably adjust to most areas, but our defaults are a little different. I don't want to blacklist any place because it doesn't fit with some idealized version of my reality, but I realize that it's an important consideration nonetheless. I feel like you never really know how you will do with a given climate or area until you're there. Unwillingness to accept something different usually trumps everything anyway.

 

[syo]

Well it sounds like the pair of you are not too demanding in terms of where. Then I think maybe it comes down to where your work will be the most fulfilling (and available) since you will spend most of your days at work. And what kind of lifestyle you prefer. Big city life? Easy access to the great outdoors? etc.

 

[Eric]

Why not Camden, just across the river? I hear you can find some cheap housing and the crime rate is super low!

Man, there was one time when I got lost on the way to the guitar-repair shop I use in NJ, and I ended up driving through the heart of Camden. Now I've lived in some pretty sketchy areas and I'm more than familiar with the questionable areas of Philadelphia, but I was scared driving through there. It's at an entirely different level there.

 

[Brian Krashpad]

Do you like a whole lot of heat and humidity and virtually no local music scene at all? Then check out Tampa.

I'm being partially facetious. This area does have many things to offer, though a thriving music scene is not amongst them.

Hasn't Tampa always had a pretty big metal scene?

The couple times I've played the Brass Mug down there I had a blast. Is it and Skipper's still going?

I digress.

I love Gainesville, but until there's a big political shift in Tallahassee, I wouldn't tell anyone to come to Florida. I shudder to think of what, if anything, will be left of the state when Pink Slip Rick gets through with it.

 

[FrankenFretter]

I have to put my vote in for the Pacific NW. If I could live anywhere else right now, I'd still stay here in the Pacific NW, but probably somewhere around Olympia, WA. Portland is nice too, but I'm not a big city (although P Town is really a small town big city) kind of guy, and I hate all the traffic there and in Seattle. As far as cost of living goes, I think Texas probably has the edge there, although moving from NW Washington state to Oregon, I did find that the cost of living is lower here. And as at least three people have already stated, we have great beer here.

Good luck with whatever you choose, Eric. I admire your sense of adventure.

 

[wingsdad]

If you hate rain (like less than 6" a year, most coming from November-March) but don't mind earthquakes, then 100 or so miles Northeast of Los Angeles ain't too bad. It's nice in the Mojave Desert. Set your watch at 3 every afternoon when the wind picks up to 30-40 mph gusts and blows the sand around a little. Temp drops year-around overnite starting at sundown about 30-40 degrees making the nights quite pleasant in August after dry heat 115 degree days and December mornings nice and brisk after daytime highs of 50. You'd be within an hour of great skiing, 90 minutes from LA or the Pacific, 2 hours from Vegas. Great fun of all kinds. The cost of living sucks, sales tax is almost 9%, unemployment's only around 20% or so here, there's a state income tax...other than that, life is grand out here.

 

[piebaldpython]

Born/raised/lived my entire life in Philly. A couple of things......if your wife is from NC, forget anything west of Philly because it will just be too cold her for during the winter. Forget your 2 Wisconsin cities too, especially for the COLD.

As to your recent fright-ride through Camden....lol....I will just say that you must not have ever driven through the rough-and-tumble areas of Philly at the "wrong" time of day. lolol

South NJ (south of Camden) can be nice. Lots of areas to choose from. However, their real estate taxes are massive. The Jersey shore communities or Delaware coast is nice too. Oh yeah, one last thing, especially since your wife is from NC. If you go into extreme south NJ, it's just like moving into Dixie. Southern-type drawls, etc galore down there. Certainly a shock to this city-boy to cross the bridge on the way to Cape May, stop off for a bite to eat and be greeted with drawls.....by all of the denizens. lol South of Wilmington DE is like that too.

I'd recommend looking in the San Diego/Escondido/Palm Springs CA area. Beautiful weather....beautiful weather....beautiful weather. Nice folks out that way too. However, might be a bit too brown (as opposed to green) due to lack of rain for you. I'm mulling over eventually retiring out that way in 10 years. Albuquerque NM is another nice area. High up on a plateau/mesa that while it gets hot during the summer days, it cools off nicely at nite.

Good luck to you.

 

[R_of_G]

Hasn't Tampa always had a pretty big metal scene?

The couple times I've played the Brass Mug down there I had a blast. Is it and Skipper's still going?

Yes, Tampa historically has a solid standing in the death metal community.

Skipper's is one of the only bright spots in the culture here, though even so, they need to diversify their local lineup as well.

It's not that there aren't good places to play in Tampa, it's more that there aren't enough bands to create any kind of self-perpetuating local scene like you seee in other cities of relatively similar size to Tampa.

I love Gainesville, but until there's a big political shift in Tallahassee, I wouldn't tell anyone to come to Florida. I shudder to think of what, if anything, will be left of the state when Pink Slip Rick gets through with it.

Couldn't agree more with those sentiments. It's terrifying to think what this state will look like in four years.

I'd vote for Austin for Eric and Mrs. Eric. My brother lived there while he was in law school and his wedding was there. That was a fun city to be in and has a local arts/music scene rivaled by very few other places. The summer heat can be brutal but some people are cool with that (pun intended).

 

[mapka]

It's pretty nice just a few hours west of you in Pa., Eric. I am saddened to see many of the neighboring farms being sold off to developers, but that might be good news for your wife in her profession. The area is growing ~

I know what you mean. I live in Allentown area (north of Phila.) and it was always a nice place. Low crime, good people, and a cultural identity all itself. Then they opened I-78. Now it is more of a "suburb" of the NYC /northern Jersey area. Farmland disappearing at an alarming rate and taxes rising (reason everyone Exodus from Jersey).

 

[Eric]

EDIT: I glanced over the cost of living requirement, well Vancouver won't meet that requirement. Oregon might but they do have an income tax but no sales tax (they do, however, have awesome beers!)

I should qualify that it doesn't need to be dirt cheap, but I'm sick of average houses costing $300 000+ like they do around the northeast corridor. It just doesn't make sense to me, though I realize that I may be fighting a losing battle of age vs. inflation.

Maybe I'm out of touch and that's just how much stuff costs these days, but as long as it's not NYC/DC/Boston expensive, there's room to negotiate IMO.

 

[Retro Hound]

I've not lived any of these places, however:

Kansas City has a lot to offer. Music, history, humidity, weather. And Lawrence, home of KU is nearby, so there's the college scene also. Or, you could just go for Lawrence. Also, Columbia, MO if you like that college town thing.

Depending on what you like, Colorado Springs or Pueblo might be in the running. Pueblo is east of the mountains, Springs is right at the beginnings and they aren't as big and busy as Denver or other parts of Colo, though Springs is getting that way.

Austin, TX is really busy and traffic is a killer, my Dad lives near there and his wife works in town. But it's a nice area with LOTS of music and dancing. Brush up on your two-step.

I've always liked Tulsa, OK, and I've actually lived there.

 

[deeaa]

Heh, over here I'd say 300k buys quite a normal nice house, but even a decent 4-room apartment can fetch that. And it's a small town. My neighbors house is for sale at over 650k but it's a big brick house too. 100k buys a 3-room apartment in a bock of flats or a row house slice a bit farther from center. Give it 10 miles to center and you could get a decent house for under 100k easy, old ones half that. In the capital 300k probably gets you a 1-room flat. My sister has a big big house near the capital and I'd venture it could soon be close to a million in value, it's insane.

Then, even a lakeside cottage without water and electricity like ours 60km off center again costs 100k quite easily...it's not cheap here either. People regularly pay for their house for 30 years and still never get a nice big house but just a flat anyway.

 

[Eric]

Heh, over here I'd say 300k buys quite a normal nice house, but even a decent 4-room apartment can fetch that. And it's a small town. My neighbors house is for sale at over 650k but it's a big brick house too. 100k buys a 3-room apartment in a bock of flats or a row house slice a bit farther from center. Give it 10 miles to center and you could get a decent house for under 100k easy, old ones half that. In the capital 300k probably gets you a 1-room flat. My sister has a big big house near the capital and I'd venture it could soon be close to a million in value, it's insane.

Then, even a lakeside cottage without water and electricity like ours 60km off center again costs 100k quite easily...it's not cheap here either. People regularly pay for their house for 30 years and still never get a nice big house but just a flat anyway.

I think my contention with that idea is that I believe prices are inflated here because it's a big metropolitan area, and it's sort of the "tax" you pay for being able to live here. Given that, it seems kind of dumb to pay extra for the same product as somewhere else, since we don't really want to live here in the long-term.

Also, if you want a house that isn't connected to the house next door and is in an area with decent schools, you're looking more at $500-650k. It seems pretty crazy to pay that if you're not "all in", so to speak.